The Lineal Heavyweight Champ

[Beanz]

How important and relevant is the right to be called lineal Heavyweight Champion of the World in 2018?

[TitoFan]

Good informative video showing the history of the heavyweight championship in 20 minutes. I shuddered seeing guys like Shannon Briggs in there, but whatever. Having said that, it's a good 20 minutes, only to conclude by placing Tyson Fury at the end of the list. To answer the question posed, I think the importance and relevance of being called the lineal HW champion has been watered down over time, and has finally plunged into total non-relevance. Fury made sure of that by beating Wlad outside the ring first, then making it official when Wlad basically refused to go on offense. Then, Fury promptly imploded, having made zero defenses of his strangely won title. Wlad vs AJ probably rescued HW championship fighting from the abyss it had fallen into, lineal claims be damned. But the real reason lineal claims became irrelevant long ago was, as the narrator correctly put it, was the rise and corruption of the different alphabet titles. Once that occurred, lineal claims became practically meaningless.

[Alpha]

In this day and age, I think it's better to rate the best fighter in a division, rather than the champion. The reason is, it has become very messy and there are no strict rules around crowning a lineal champion. Who determinds the #1 and #2 for example? Back in the day, the former champion basically did.

As for Fury, his claim is even muddied. Was Wlad the lineal champ? I pointed this out in another thread. Vitali was still unretired at the time of Wlad/Povetkin, so was that match really between the #1 and #2?

Fury as we know also accepted a 2 year back dated suspension, meaning that the Wlad fight should technically be ruled a no contest.

Just to add a bit more fun, some believe Fury should still be considered lineal, despite his retirement and suspension. The Ring actually recognised Vitali/Saunders (their #1 and #2 at the time) as for their championship. If they refuse to recognise Fury's retirement (for mental health and drug related issues) because he is back and fighting, then the same could be argued for Vitali.

Like I say, lineal championships have become very messy.

[TitoFan]

It's mental vomit. I'd rather argue who's p4p than who's lineal at this point.

[Alpha]

It's mental vomit. I'd rather argue who's p4p than who's lineal at this point.

Like I said, I prefer to rate the best fighter in a division these days.

P4P is too subjective for me.

[powerpuncher]

In this day and age, I think it's better to rate the best fighter in a division, rather than the champion. The reason is, it has become very messy and there are no strict rules around crowning a lineal champion. Who determinds the #1 and #2 for example? Back in the day, the former champion basically did.

As for Fury, his claim is even muddied. Was Wlad the lineal champ? I pointed this out in another thread. Vitali was still unretired at the time of Wlad/Povetkin, so was that match really between the #1 and #2?

Fury as we know also accepted a 2 year back dated suspension, meaning that the Wlad fight should technically be ruled a no contest.

Just to add a bit more fun, some believe Fury should still be considered lineal, despite his retirement and suspension. The Ring actually recognised Vitali/Saunders (their #1 and #2 at the time) as for their championship. If they refuse to recognise Fury's retirement (for mental health and drug related issues) because he is back and fighting, then the same could be argued for Vitali.

Like I say, lineal championships have become very messy.

Things have changed a lot. With multiple titles it gets so messy. It becomes easier to become lineal champ without fighting the best. For example, Canelo got the real middleweight title even though GGG was considered the best middleweight. So the lineal title wasn’t looked at as highly as other titles.

Also, a lineal champ can lose a title to a lesser fighter and generally as fans we consider the next in line as champ rather than the guy who beat the lineal champ. It’s just weird. That’s the problem with multiple titles

[Alpha]

In this day and age, I think it's better to rate the best fighter in a division, rather than the champion. The reason is, it has become very messy and there are no strict rules around crowning a lineal champion. Who determinds the #1 and #2 for example? Back in the day, the former champion basically did.

As for Fury, his claim is even muddied. Was Wlad the lineal champ? I pointed this out in another thread. Vitali was still unretired at the time of Wlad/Povetkin, so was that match really between the #1 and #2?

Fury as we know also accepted a 2 year back dated suspension, meaning that the Wlad fight should technically be ruled a no contest.

Just to add a bit more fun, some believe Fury should still be considered lineal, despite his retirement and suspension. The Ring actually recognised Vitali/Saunders (their #1 and #2 at the time) as for their championship. If they refuse to recognise Fury's retirement (for mental health and drug related issues) because he is back and fighting, then the same could be argued for Vitali.

Like I say, lineal championships have become very messy.

Things have changed a lot. With multiple titles it gets so messy. It becomes easier to become lineal champ without fighting the best. For example, Canelo got the real middleweight title even though GGG was considered the best middleweight. So the lineal title wasn’t looked at as highly as other titles.

Also, a lineal champ can lose a title to a lesser fighter and generally as fans we consider the next in line as champ rather than the guy who beat the lineal champ. It’s just weird. That’s the problem with multiple titles

Exactly, and Canelo has more claim to a lineal title than Fury.

The problem is there are no set guidelines and no 1 recognised authority determining who is #1 and #2, if retirements/ suspensions are cause for vacating.

Now you have to unify 4 titles, previously it was 3. The number of titles required could increase in the future.

[TitoFan]

With multiple belts, it's pointless to even talk "lineal". Maybe when referring to the good ol' days.

[TitoFan]

In this day and age, I think it's better to rate the best fighter in a division, rather than the champion. The reason is, it has become very messy and there are no strict rules around crowning a lineal champion. Who determinds the #1 and #2 for example? Back in the day, the former champion basically did.

As for Fury, his claim is even muddied. Was Wlad the lineal champ? I pointed this out in another thread. Vitali was still unretired at the time of Wlad/Povetkin, so was that match really between the #1 and #2?

Fury as we know also accepted a 2 year back dated suspension, meaning that the Wlad fight should technically be ruled a no contest.

Just to add a bit more fun, some believe Fury should still be considered lineal, despite his retirement and suspension. The Ring actually recognised Vitali/Saunders (their #1 and #2 at the time) as for their championship. If they refuse to recognise Fury's retirement (for mental health and drug related issues) because he is back and fighting, then the same could be argued for Vitali.

Like I say, lineal championships have become very messy.

Things have changed a lot. With multiple titles it gets so messy. It becomes easier to become lineal champ without fighting the best. For example, Canelo got the real middleweight title even though GGG was considered the best middleweight. So the lineal title wasn’t looked at as highly as other titles.

Also, a lineal champ can lose a title to a lesser fighter and generally as fans we consider the next in line as champ rather than the guy who beat the lineal champ. It’s just weird. That’s the problem with multiple titles

Exactly, and Canelo has more claim to a lineal title than Fury.

The problem is there are no set guidelines and no 1 recognised authority determining who is #1 and #2, if retirements/ suspensions are cause for vacating.

Now you have to unify 4 titles, previously it was 3. The number of titles required could increase in the future.

Well..... Canelo IS in line to receive the "Adolfo Lopez Mateos WBC World Title Belt" if he lasts the 12 rounds against GGG on Sept 15th.

I hear that one is prettier and gaudier than the regular ol' belts.

[brocktonblockbust]

Sarcasm at close-to-its-finest

[Fenster]

It's perfectly fair to say Fury is lineal champ as Wlad was universally recognised as the no.1 heavyweight for about a decade (ignoring Vitali). The very fact Fury never lost his title in the ring is the whole point of lineal. It doesn't matter if a new linage has been created, it quite simply is bogus until a fighter can claim to be the man who beat the man. So any returning lineal champion is THE MAN regardless of who he fights. In this day day of multi titles obviously "lineal" no longer means "best," however, it still does make things easier.

The Ring is not "lineal" (something commonly muddled). They went out of business in the late 80s/early 90s then stopped the rankings altogether, upon restarting the ratings they ignored their own history which led to nonsense like Roy Jones being "lineal" when the linage to Michalczewski had not been broken. The Ring tried to reinvent history for TV exposure champions like Roy could give them.

[Alpha]

The question still remains, who decides who fills the vacancy? Usually it's #1 vs #2. Most feel Wlad became lineal with the Povetkin fight. But Vitali didn't retire until December 2013. So unless you considered Povetkin ahead of Vitali, it can be argued that fight wasn't fit the lineal title.

Also the fact that Fury accepted a back dated 2 year ban stemming from the fight prior to Wlad, that fight should really be a no contest.

Fury's claim to the lineal title is weak in my opinion.

Can I ask @Fenster, do you still consider Canelo the lineal champion?

[Fenster]

The question still remains, who decides who fills the vacancy? Usually it's #1 vs #2. Most feel Wlad became lineal with the Povetkin fight. But Vitali didn't retire until December 2013. So unless you considered Povetkin ahead of Vitali, it can be argued that fight wasn't fit the lineal title.

Also the fact that Fury accepted a back dated 2 year ban stemming from the fight prior to Wlad, that fight should really be a no contest.

Fury's claim to the lineal title is weak in my opinion.

Can I ask @Fenster, do you still consider Canelo the lineal champion?

Yes Canelo's linage is very straightforward and legit.

Hopkins reignited the middleweight linage when beating Tito and unifying all the belts* (no.1-vs-no.2). He remained unbeaten until Taylor dethroned him, who subsequently lost to Pavlik, who lost to Sergio, who lost to Cotto, who then lost to the mexican meat man. The worst thing about Canelo-GGG draw was Golovkin not getting his chance to sit alongside Hagler, Monzon and the other great grey beards.

*for what it's worth, Hopkins unified all four alphabets when beating Oscar

As for Fury's linage - the problem was Wlad-Vitali could never fight. I was a critic of Wlad's place upon the top of the tree throughout his reign precisely because of Vitali, however, by time Fury beat Wlad it was universally recognised that Wlad was the standout of his era and a first ballet HOFamer.

[Alpha]

The question still remains, who decides who fills the vacancy? Usually it's #1 vs #2. Most feel Wlad became lineal with the Povetkin fight. But Vitali didn't retire until December 2013. So unless you considered Povetkin ahead of Vitali, it can be argued that fight wasn't fit the lineal title.

Also the fact that Fury accepted a back dated 2 year ban stemming from the fight prior to Wlad, that fight should really be a no contest.

Fury's claim to the lineal title is weak in my opinion.

Can I ask @Fenster, do you still consider Canelo the lineal champion?

Yes Canelo's linage is very straightforward and legit.

Hopkins reignited the middleweight linage when beating Tito and unifying all the belts* (no.1-vs-no.2). He remained unbeaten until Taylor dethroned him, who subsequently lost to Pavlik, who lost to Sergio, who lost to Cotto, who then lost to the mexican meat man. The worst thing about Canelo-GGG draw was Golovkin not getting his chance to sit alongside Hagler, Monzon and the other great grey beards.

*for what it's worth, Hopkins unified all four alphabets when beating Oscar

As for Fury's linage - the problem was Wlad-Vitali could never fight. I was a critic of Wlad's place upon the top of the tree throughout his reign precisely because of Vitali, however, by time Fury beat Wlad it was universally recognised that Wlad was the standout of his era and a first ballet HOFamer.

Good Post, agree with some of it tho. How in your opinion does a lineal champion get crowned (if vacant)? Is it 1 vs 2, or unify 3/4 titles. That's the biggest problem with lineal, its that there are no clear cut rules.

I also think it's a bad precedent to set by fans, to continue to recognise fighters as champions after they have been banned for PEDs.

[Master]

It is muddy as it is but to add PED into the equation means fighters like Shane Mosley, Roy Jones, and Holyfield would not be considered. Fury would be out.