A paradox about p4p rankings

[CGM]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

they will not rank him on welter and jr. welter... they have him on lightweight... Pac defies weight classes that makes him special..

OK I guessed wrong. They have him at #2 lightweight, behind Marquez and Campbell, and #5 Welterweight, and #1 pfp. As of Dec 14. Go figure.

[antimoron]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

they will not rank him on welter and jr. welter... they have him on lightweight... Pac defies weight classes that makes him special..

OK I guessed wrong. They have him at #2 lightweight, behind Marquez and Campbell, and #5 Welterweight, and #1 pfp. As of Dec 14. Go figure.

ok i saw it.. man that welter rank is too much... #5? RING MAG? got to talk to doug f. about it..

[Kev]

To be honest Bilbo, I don't disagree with you, and I don't have anything better to offer. I'm just pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in the concept.

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how Ring Magazine handles it. Will they rank PAC as a welterweight, and will they rank him as the #1 welterweight, assuming he still has his p4p #1 status. Same question applies to JWW, seeing as how it looks like he will fight Hatton.

So how do you see it? How do you think Ring magazine will/should rank PAC?

Me, I do not think Ring will rank him #1 p4p without being #1 in a particular division.

The Ring rankings for Manny are a little strange to be honest.

He's rated number in the world p4p, number 3 at lightweight behind Marquez and Campbell and number 5 at welterweight, a division that has no champ.

It appears strange but not really when you consider that all the rankings are based on different factors.

At lightweight, Marquez defeated Casamayor who was the linear champ, something very important to the Ring who follow the belt lineage like it's the line of David so Marquez is number 1. Campbell is at 2 at lightweight as he defeated Juan Diaz who by overwhelming and universal consent was seen as the best at lightweight having unified 2, maybe even 3 belts I can't remember whilst Casamayor was looking God awful.

Manny got his belt by beating the weakest link in David Diaz so at lightweight those rankings make sense, based on acomplishments within that division.

At welter he's number 5 behind Margarito, Cotto, Mosely and Clottey, with Williams and Floyd no longer rated as Paul moved up and Floyd retired.

Again based on acomplishments within that weight class the Ring have it spot on imo.

But when it comes to p4p the weight classes are disregarded and the fighters's acomplishments overall are taken into account irrespective of weight.

Manny has been on fire the last couple years and has a record that is hands down the best of any current fighter so he is overwhelmingly the p4p best in the world.

Does that mean I think he could beat Paul Williams or Tony Margarito? Hell no he's too small, but it's irelevent, this is p4p and wins in 3 weight classes with two world titles and a win over a legend who lost a split decision to the other p4p best Floyd only two fights prior means Manny has acomplished the most of any fighter currently in action.

So in conclusion, he's p4p the number 1, at lightweight number 3 and at welterweight number 5.

Confusing, not at all

[CGM]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo good posts. reps on their way.

[Kev]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo reps on their way.

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

[antimoron]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo reps on their way.

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

well said there sir...

[CGM]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo reps on their way.

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

p4p rankings not subject to opinion? Facts and actual results only? Okaaaayyyy, if you say so. I'm going to withdraw those reps if you keep making statements like that.

[Kev]

heh heh heh. cheers Bilbo reps on their way.

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

p4p rankings not subject to opinion? Facts and actual results only? Okaaaayyyy, if you say so. I'm going to withdraw those reps if you keep making statements like that.

So which fighter rankings in the Ring's list do you think are just subject to their opinions?

Of course we can all disagree to an extent thinking one fighter should be rated higher than another but to suggest they just do it on a whim is ridiculous.

They follow clearly defined guidelines where their own 'point of view' is minimised as much as possible.

A clear demonstration of this is the Ring's ranking of Juan Manuel Marquez as the Ring Champ at lightweight even though they have Manny as the world's best fighter.

Even though Manny beat Marquez earlier this year, and even though he's clearly the most acomplished fighter in the world right now in terms of fight results and achievements they Marquez as champ because he won the linear title. Their personal opinion on who is best did not come to it. He's the linear champ, he's number 1.

With the p4p rankings themselves the rules and guidelines are less concrete and maybe more abstract but they are still guided by their own carefully set up principles established over 100 years of experience.

You can be pretty sure that when the Ring magazine rates a fighter in the top 10 that his acomplishments and recent fight performances in particular have earned him that right.

As for other magazines, tv stations, websites and forum members p4p rankings, I agree they often seem to be completely bizarre and biased to one or two weight classes but they are the not official p4p rankings.

When you are talking p4p rankings, you are talking The Ring Magazine and their criteria for judging are carefully defined and personal opinion does not factor much into their decisions if at all.

[Kev]

Actually I just looked at which writers and experts comprise the Ring's rating team.

Amongst the names I found Joe Tessitore and Barry McGuigan.

In the light of this I wish to retract my previous post

[CGM]

Thanks buddy, actually whilst I'm on my soap box.......

Remember the p4p rankings at least those from the Ring are carried out as objectively as possible using scientific method and based on performances and acomplishment's

Who you think would beat who is irelevent, it's the actual fights that have taken place that count.

So you thinking Manny should be downgraded from p4p number 1 status now he has fought at welter because in your opinion he would lose to Margarito makes a mockery of the ranking system.

It's not based on opinion but fact and actual results.

If Manny and Margarito fought and Manny lost he would no longer be p4p number 1, as he would have been beaten. He'd drop down a place or two.

But you can't drop him before the fight has even happened because you assume he would lose as that's ridiculous and makes the rankings nothing more than your opinion of who would win what fights.

And when we consider that everybody thought Oscar would beat Manny easily as well...............

p4p rankings not subject to opinion? Facts and actual results only? Okaaaayyyy, if you say so. I'm going to withdraw those reps if you keep making statements like that.

So which fighter rankings in the Ring's list do you think are just subject to their opinions?

Of course we can all disagree to an extent thinking one fighter should be rated higher than another but to suggest they just do it on a whim is ridiculous.

They follow clearly defined guidelines where their own 'point of view' is minimised as much as possible.

A clear demonstration of this is the Ring's ranking of Juan Manuel Marquez as the Ring Champ at lightweight even though they have Manny as the world's best fighter.

Even though Manny beat Marquez earlier this year, and even though he's clearly the most acomplished fighter in the world right now in terms of fight results and achievements they Marquez as champ because he won the linear title. Their personal opinion on who is best did not come to it. He's the linear champ, he's number 1.

With the p4p rankings themselves the rules and guidelines are less concrete and maybe more abstract but they are still guided by their own carefully set up principles established over 100 years of experience.

You can be pretty sure that when the Ring magazine rates a fighter in the top 10 that his acomplishments and recent fight performances in particular have earned him that right.

As for other magazines, tv stations, websites and forum members p4p rankings, I agree they often seem to be completely bizarre and biased to one or two weight classes but they are the not official p4p rankings.

When you are talking p4p rankings, you are talking The Ring Magazine and their criteria for judging are carefully defined and personal opinion does not factor much into their decisions if at all.

OK lets clarify. Of course facts and results play a role, It would be foolish to suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is that in addition to the bare facts, there's subjectivity and opinion also. I'd be rather surprised if you tried to tell me that Ring Rankings contain no subjectivity.

edit: duly noted on Tessitore and McGuigan LOL

[Kev]

p4p rankings not subject to opinion? Facts and actual results only? Okaaaayyyy, if you say so. I'm going to withdraw those reps if you keep making statements like that.

So which fighter rankings in the Ring's list do you think are just subject to their opinions?

Of course we can all disagree to an extent thinking one fighter should be rated higher than another but to suggest they just do it on a whim is ridiculous.

They follow clearly defined guidelines where their own 'point of view' is minimised as much as possible.

A clear demonstration of this is the Ring's ranking of Juan Manuel Marquez as the Ring Champ at lightweight even though they have Manny as the world's best fighter.

Even though Manny beat Marquez earlier this year, and even though he's clearly the most acomplished fighter in the world right now in terms of fight results and achievements they Marquez as champ because he won the linear title. Their personal opinion on who is best did not come to it. He's the linear champ, he's number 1.

With the p4p rankings themselves the rules and guidelines are less concrete and maybe more abstract but they are still guided by their own carefully set up principles established over 100 years of experience.

You can be pretty sure that when the Ring magazine rates a fighter in the top 10 that his acomplishments and recent fight performances in particular have earned him that right.

As for other magazines, tv stations, websites and forum members p4p rankings, I agree they often seem to be completely bizarre and biased to one or two weight classes but they are the not official p4p rankings.

When you are talking p4p rankings, you are talking The Ring Magazine and their criteria for judging are carefully defined and personal opinion does not factor much into their decisions if at all.

OK lets clarify. Of course facts and results play a role, It would be foolish to suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is that in addition to the bare facts, there's subjectivity and opinion also. I'd be rather surprised if you tried to tell me that Ring Rankings contain no subjectivity.

edit: duly noted on Tessitore and McGuigan LOL

There's some personal bias of course but it's very small imo. I mean look at their current top 10 and honestly you can't really criticise it. I mean I'd like to have Joe Calzaghe at number 2 seeing as beat Hopkins this year who was number 5 p4p at the time and has never lost a fight, whereas Marquez got beat against Manny Pacqiauo and has lost a couple times in his career but it's a minor niggle, a difference of one place. I wouldn't have R Marquez in the top 10 either, back to back losses should have seen him drop down. I'd probably bump the others below him up and have Paul Williams on the list at number 10 instead.

Aside from that the rankings are very fair imo, and there's no doubt that R Marquez is a brilliant fighter and still one of the best in the world even if I wouldn't have him at 7 personally.

[CGM]

So which fighter rankings in the Ring's list do you think are just subject to their opinions?

Of course we can all disagree to an extent thinking one fighter should be rated higher than another but to suggest they just do it on a whim is ridiculous.

They follow clearly defined guidelines where their own 'point of view' is minimised as much as possible.

A clear demonstration of this is the Ring's ranking of Juan Manuel Marquez as the Ring Champ at lightweight even though they have Manny as the world's best fighter.

Even though Manny beat Marquez earlier this year, and even though he's clearly the most acomplished fighter in the world right now in terms of fight results and achievements they Marquez as champ because he won the linear title. Their personal opinion on who is best did not come to it. He's the linear champ, he's number 1.

With the p4p rankings themselves the rules and guidelines are less concrete and maybe more abstract but they are still guided by their own carefully set up principles established over 100 years of experience.

You can be pretty sure that when the Ring magazine rates a fighter in the top 10 that his acomplishments and recent fight performances in particular have earned him that right.

As for other magazines, tv stations, websites and forum members p4p rankings, I agree they often seem to be completely bizarre and biased to one or two weight classes but they are the not official p4p rankings.

When you are talking p4p rankings, you are talking The Ring Magazine and their criteria for judging are carefully defined and personal opinion does not factor much into their decisions if at all.

OK lets clarify. Of course facts and results play a role, It would be foolish to suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is that in addition to the bare facts, there's subjectivity and opinion also. I'd be rather surprised if you tried to tell me that Ring Rankings contain no subjectivity.

edit: duly noted on Tessitore and McGuigan LOL

There's some personal bias of course but it's very small imo. I mean look at their current top 10 and honestly you can't really criticise it. I mean I'd like to have Joe Calzaghe at number 2 seeing as beat Hopkins this year who was number 5 p4p at the time and has never lost a fight, whereas Marquez got beat against Manny Pacqiauo and has lost a couple times in his career but it's a minor niggle, a difference of one place. I wouldn't have R Marquez in the top 10 either, back to back losses should have seen him drop down. I'd probably bump the others below him up and have Paul Williams on the list at number 10 instead.

Aside from that the rankings are very fair imo, and there's no doubt that R Marquez is a brilliant fighter and still one of the best in the world even if I wouldn't have him at 7 personally.

Oh, I have no problem with calling the rankings fair, and I have no major disagreement with the p4p rankings. But it sure aint an exact science. I'd say there's a lot more opinion than you claim. If there wasn't, then they wouldn't need guys like McGuigan and Tessitore on the selection team would they? That's the thing about opinions, you get enough people giving them and things tend to even out and discrepancies disappear.

[Kev]

OK lets clarify. Of course facts and results play a role, It would be foolish to suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is that in addition to the bare facts, there's subjectivity and opinion also. I'd be rather surprised if you tried to tell me that Ring Rankings contain no subjectivity.

edit: duly noted on Tessitore and McGuigan LOL

There's some personal bias of course but it's very small imo. I mean look at their current top 10 and honestly you can't really criticise it. I mean I'd like to have Joe Calzaghe at number 2 seeing as beat Hopkins this year who was number 5 p4p at the time and has never lost a fight, whereas Marquez got beat against Manny Pacqiauo and has lost a couple times in his career but it's a minor niggle, a difference of one place. I wouldn't have R Marquez in the top 10 either, back to back losses should have seen him drop down. I'd probably bump the others below him up and have Paul Williams on the list at number 10 instead.

Aside from that the rankings are very fair imo, and there's no doubt that R Marquez is a brilliant fighter and still one of the best in the world even if I wouldn't have him at 7 personally.

Oh, I have no problem with calling the rankings fair, and I have no major disagreement with the p4p rankings. But it sure aint an exact science. I'd say there's a lot more opinion than you claim. If there wasn't, then they wouldn't need guys like McGuigan and Tessitore on the selection team would they? That's the thing about opinions, you get enough people giving them and things tend to even out and discrepancies disappear.

I think we can be fairly sure that Mcguigan's opinion at least isnt taken seriously by the Ring. If it was Amir Khan would be in the top 5

[CGM]

There's some personal bias of course but it's very small imo. I mean look at their current top 10 and honestly you can't really criticise it. I mean I'd like to have Joe Calzaghe at number 2 seeing as beat Hopkins this year who was number 5 p4p at the time and has never lost a fight, whereas Marquez got beat against Manny Pacqiauo and has lost a couple times in his career but it's a minor niggle, a difference of one place. I wouldn't have R Marquez in the top 10 either, back to back losses should have seen him drop down. I'd probably bump the others below him up and have Paul Williams on the list at number 10 instead.

Aside from that the rankings are very fair imo, and there's no doubt that R Marquez is a brilliant fighter and still one of the best in the world even if I wouldn't have him at 7 personally.

Oh, I have no problem with calling the rankings fair, and I have no major disagreement with the p4p rankings. But it sure aint an exact science. I'd say there's a lot more opinion than you claim. If there wasn't, then they wouldn't need guys like McGuigan and Tessitore on the selection team would they? That's the thing about opinions, you get enough people giving them and things tend to even out and discrepancies disappear.

I think we can be fairly sure that Mcguigan's opinion at least isnt taken seriously by the Ring. If it was Amir Khan would be in the top 5

You're the one who said McGuigan was on the team. Anyways, it's time to move on, in my opinion. We've about wrung this topic dry.