Catch Weight - Title fight?

[fan johnny]

Even worse. NO Welterweight save for Manny and maybe Floyd would be anywhere near 147 when they actually step into the ring.

They simply aren't naturally that weight, they can cope with dehydrating to stand on some scales for 5 minutes then rehydrating... they can't be in that state for hours and fight.

That's why they got rid of same day weigh ins... fighters were exhausting themselves doing it and getting rid of the fluid that protects the brain... Dehydration/Fatigue = Brain Damage.

i know they place the system there to protect the fighters, but then these fighters take advantage of it thru weight cuts. so, same day weigh-in would show mosley and others aren't fighting at their natural weight. why then would pac fight a middleweight wherein he's the natural welter?

pacman is not a natural welterweight.

Drying up is part of the game now, 24 hour weighins changed that.

A natural Welterweight doesn't walk around at 147 pounds and a natural middle weight doesn't walk around at 160 pounds, they are just able to hit that for the weight in and not be a corpse afterwards.

That's the way things are for everybody all the way up to Cruiserweight and it's not going to change just so that Pacman can spread himself over an 8th division he's not big enough for.

Dude! you sure got your wires crossed.

140 - 147 is the welterweight class. Anyone walking around at that weight is a natural welterweight. You are arguing weight management (dehydration) strategies that fighters use to "qualify" for lower weightclasses in order to gain a weight advantage. Some fighters, not all, do this better than others. I even read that some fighter won't do it. Weightclasses are there to prevent bigger fighters from having an advantage over smaller fighters.

[AdamGB]

140.1-147 is the Welterweight class? Wow... you learn something everyday.

Maybe if we still had same day weigh ins then people who walk around at or near to 147 would be Welterweights...

But that's not how things are any more, as I have said things have changed... virtually everybody drys up now... they find a weight that they can do it effectivly at.

Guys who campaign at 140/147/154/160... what ever... none of them walk around at the weight anymore.

Things have changed since same day weigh ins and a whole entire division of established fighters aren't going to be shifted up a division or two just so that manny can dominate an 8th division. By beating the man at Light Welterweight he's already beat the top fighter of the people who would end up in the 147 class anyway if we had same day weigh ins again

Every time Pac has fought with the exception of ODLH I guarantee you that he will have been heavier than he was when he weighed in, even Hatton... the same habits of drying up apply to Pac too... not a problem then though is it? If you weighed Pacman in the ring against Hatton he would of been in the Welterweight divison... it's a good thing that we go off the WEIGH IN then isn't it?

The more he moves up the less he'll have to do it... eventually he will get too far and that's just a fact. That's the only reason Mosely is tempted down is because Roach suspects that he has finally moved up to the limit were these guys are just too big.

Well in that case fight guys who are weighing in as Light Welters... If guys weighing in as Welters are too big then they're too big.

[fan johnny]

140.1-147 is the Welterweight class? Wow... you learn something everyday.

Maybe if we still had same day weigh ins then people who walk around at or near to 147 would be Welterweights...

But that's not how things are any more, as I have said things have changed... virtually everybody drys up now... they find a weight that they can do it effectivly at.

Guys who campaign at 140/147/154/160... what ever... none of them walk around at the weight anymore.

Things have changed since same day weigh ins and a whole entire division of established fighters aren't going to be shifted up a division or two just so that manny can dominate an 8th division. By beating the man at Light Welterweight he's already beat the top fighter of the people who would end up in the 147 class anyway if we had same day weigh ins again

Every time Pac has fought with the exception of ODLH I guarantee you that he will have been heavier than he was when he weighed in, even Hatton... the same habits of drying up apply to Pac too... not a problem then though is it? If you weighed Pacman in the ring against Hatton he would of been in the Welterweight divison... it's a good thing that we go off the WEIGH IN then isn't it?

The more he moves up the less he'll have to do it... eventually he will get too far and that's just a fact. That's the only reason Mosely is tempted down is because Roach suspects that he has finally moved up to the limit were these guys are just too big.

Well in that case fight guys who are weighing in as Light Welters... If guys weighing in as Welters are too big then they're too big.

You agree about the definition of the welterweight class and proclaim fighter safety is the reason Pacquiao shouldn't be fighting in the welterweight class. You state it's unsafe for Mosley because he has to dehydrate to make weight. What an absolute hypocrite! If you were concerned about fighter safety you would put in a limit a fighter can be allowed to "rehydrate". I already highlighted your response. Some boxing commissions actually set a limit.

This article articulates my position on this issue better than I can.

It's a good article a bit long but worth it if you can get though it.
Boxing and the Law: Weighing In On Jose Luis Castillo | TheSweetScience.com Boxing
By David Berlin

The weigh-in before the fight is controlled by rules and by ritual. Two men, bare-chested, challenging each other with hard eyes and hard muscles, as each takes his turn stepping on the scale. The weight is made. Biceps are flexed in a show of triumph. It is a moment of drama, the last chance for opponents to take stock of each other, to measure each other, before they meet in the ring.

But the weigh-in, however dramatic, is only prelude. Thousands may have filled the seats of the MGM Grand Garden Arena ...... (see link for the complete article)....... Joan Guzman, has been known to come into a fight nineteen pounds heavier than he was at the weigh-in. He achieves this by hooking up to an IV in order to re-hydrate his body.

These massive weight gains between weigh-in and fight are possible because of the length of time between the two events. The WBC directs that “[t]he weigh-in ceremony shall be held from 24 to 30 hours prior to the start of the boxing event.” The WBA rule mandates that the weigh-in take place between 4 and 8 pm the day before the fight. The IBF states that “[t]he initial weigh-in shall be no less than twelve (12) nor more than twenty four (24) hours before the start of the bout,” but, in practice, it is routinely more than 24 hours; the IBF, however, does direct that a second weigh-in take place on the morning of the fight, at which the fighters can weigh no more than ten pounds above the weight limit. The WBO fails to set forth a time in their rules, but the practice is to hold the weigh-in ceremony the day before the fight. The rules of the sanctioning organizations apply only to championship fights, but most state commissions also hold day-before weigh-ins. In all cases, hours passed translate into pounds gained.

It wasn’t always that way. In the past, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight. That practice changed for the wrong reasons – reasons that have to do with the promotion of the fight, and not with the health and safety of the fighters. “Promoters use weigh-ins as a way of marketing their fighters,” explains Larry Merchant, expert analyst for HBO Boxing since 1978. Holding the weigh-in the day before the fight provides another opportunity for publicity and television exposure. It is part of the hype leading to the fight, hype which sells tickets and attracts television viewers. Promoters and television executives are not wrong to want this publicity, but finally it must take a back seat to the more important considerations of safety and fairness. It is those interests that state commissions and sanctioning organizations must protect.

Proponents of day-before weigh-ins argue that the practice promotes the health and safety of boxers, as it gives them sufficient time to become properly re-hydrated before entering the ring. But that assumes that they have become improperly dehydrated leading up to the weigh-in. Greg Sirb, director of the Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission since 1987 and a vocal advocate of day-of-the-fight weigh-ins, makes the logical argument: “If a fighter has to starve himself and dehydrate himself in order to make weight, that is a sign that the fighter should not be in that weight class.” Starvation and dehydration, needless to say, cannot be good for the body, yet that is exactly what is promoted by day-before weigh-ins.

“The scientific or medical argument for early weigh-ins has largely been discounted,” says Merchant. Since there is no scientific basis to support day-before weigh-ins, a return to day-of-the-fight weigh-ins seems in order. “If it doesn’t make fighting safer,” argues Merchant, “then on an observational basis it makes boxing less safe.” That is because it allows a naturally bigger man to gain an unfair advantage in size and strength over a smaller opponent. Merchant illustrates his point: “Emmanuel Steward told me that Gerald McClellan used to wake up on the day of the weigh-in ten pounds over the weight limit. He would put on a rubber suit and go in and out of a steam room until he made weight.” McClellan, a middleweight knockout artist, was almost always the bigger, stronger man in the ring.

Holding the weigh-in on the day of the fight, as Pennsylvania does, encourages fighters to make weight in the proper way, and to fight in their proper weight classes. “What’s more important,” asks Sirb, “what the kid weighs before the fight or what he weighs at competition?” And that, finally, is the point. The reason that weight classes exist at all is to ensure a fair fight. Fair and safe competition begins with the requirement that the two men facing each other are the same size. If that is the goal, as it must be, then the way to achieve that goal is by holding day-of-the-fight weigh-ins. That is the only way to encourage boxers to fight in their proper weight classes. “Pick on someone your own size” may be a schoolyard rebuke, but it is a call, at bottom, for fairness.

Any change from the present system of day-before weigh-ins is bound to meet with resistance from both promoters and fighters. But Merchant believes that a combination of creative and legal thinking can overcome this resistance. On the creative side, promoters need to find different ways to market their fights so that they do not have to depend on weigh-ins. Adjusting the times of press conferences, making fighters available to the press and holding public work-outs are among a number of suggestions offered by Merchant. Administratively, commissioners, particularly those in the major fight venues of Nevada and California in the west, and New York and New Jersey in the east, need to institute a policy of day-of-the-fight weigh-ins. “Ultimately what will happen is that fighters will start to fight at a weight that is more natural for them,” says Merchant.

In his lead-in to the HBO-televised Barrios-Guzman fight, Merchant spoke on air about a movement to return to weigh-ins on the day of the fight in order to stop the practice of fighters trying to make weight in the wrong way. He was speaking about Jorge Barrios, but hovering behind his comments was the shadow of Jose Luis Castillo. Both fighters failed to make weight for title fights, and the only reason they tried to make a weight that was unnaturally low given the size of their bodies was that they knew they would have more than 24 hours to put weight back on. Early weigh-ins, says Merchant, “discourage some fighters from training as hard as they have to because they think they can finesse it.” If Castillo knew that he would not have more than a day to replenish his body, he would not have pretended to be a lightweight. Safety and fairness matter – they matter more than publicity – and we will move one step closer to those goals by having fighters fight in their proper weight classes.

[XaduBoxer]

These are the things I can say about this...

If 2 boxers agreed to fight in a certain catchweight then I think each boxer thinks that he can win that fight in that catchweight (who does agree to fight at a certain catchweight and thinks of losing? )

If a boxer agrees to have his title be put on the line then it's his call... As long as all conditions of the fight satisfy the requirements of a title fight... Also it must have the blessings of the sanctioning organization...

So what's the fuzz?? As long as all parties (boxers, promoters, trainers, boxing orgs, etc) agrees that a fight be made at a catchweight with a title belt on the line then it's a go...
.

[donnydarkoIRL]

hi Donny, long time no see .... I agree, but Pac's fight criteria /stipulations are really a form of masking the opponents weakness. They're are coming off losses, slow a foot, come foward fighters with no lateral movement, old and battle, worn, no fights against 1 punch power fighters, (never fought the Soto's or Valeros) and now the latest weight drain your opponent. With the exception of JMM all of Pac's opponnets were carefully handpicked. (and the JMM fights were probably seen as no power threats) He has not fought a fighter with the opposite of the items listed above in who knows how long!! Basically a fighter of color and now that he has an opportunity he wants to weight drain them to nullify their strengths.... what a farce !

I agree, he has being using weight drain as a pre fight tactic, but I can't fault him for that.
If I could I'd do the exact same

[fan johnny]

hi Donny, long time no see .... I agree, but Pac's fight criteria /stipulations are really a form of masking the opponents weakness. They're are coming off losses, slow a foot, come foward fighters with no lateral movement, old and battle, worn, no fights against 1 punch power fighters, (never fought the Soto's or Valeros) and now the latest weight drain your opponent. With the exception of JMM all of Pac's opponnets were carefully handpicked. (and the JMM fights were probably seen as no power threats) He has not fought a fighter with the opposite of the items listed above in who knows how long!! Basically a fighter of color and now that he has an opportunity he wants to weight drain them to nullify their strengths.... what a farce !

I agree, he has being using weight drain as a pre fight tactic, but I can't fault him for that.
If I could I'd do the exact same

In the spirit of fairness, the pre-fight tactic of "catch weight" wouldn't be necessary if fighters wouldn't resort to unnatural means to making a weightclass maximum. Which is actually a form of "cheating" and there are penalties written into the rules which address this issue. I agree, fighters also should not be tempted to use unnatural means to make weight. Mosley should have to work harder in the gym to make the weight naturally.

[AdamGB]

140.1-147 is the Welterweight class? Wow... you learn something everyday.

Maybe if we still had same day weigh ins then people who walk around at or near to 147 would be Welterweights...

But that's not how things are any more, as I have said things have changed... virtually everybody drys up now... they find a weight that they can do it effectivly at.

Guys who campaign at 140/147/154/160... what ever... none of them walk around at the weight anymore.

Things have changed since same day weigh ins and a whole entire division of established fighters aren't going to be shifted up a division or two just so that manny can dominate an 8th division. By beating the man at Light Welterweight he's already beat the top fighter of the people who would end up in the 147 class anyway if we had same day weigh ins again

Every time Pac has fought with the exception of ODLH I guarantee you that he will have been heavier than he was when he weighed in, even Hatton... the same habits of drying up apply to Pac too... not a problem then though is it? If you weighed Pacman in the ring against Hatton he would of been in the Welterweight divison... it's a good thing that we go off the WEIGH IN then isn't it?

The more he moves up the less he'll have to do it... eventually he will get too far and that's just a fact. That's the only reason Mosely is tempted down is because Roach suspects that he has finally moved up to the limit were these guys are just too big.

Well in that case fight guys who are weighing in as Light Welters... If guys weighing in as Welters are too big then they're too big.

You agree about the definition of the welterweight class and proclaim fighter safety is the reason Pacquiao shouldn't be fighting in the welterweight class. You state it's unsafe for Mosley because he has to dehydrate to make weight. What an absolute hypocrite! If you were concerned about fighter safety you would put in a limit a fighter can be allowed to "rehydrate". I already highlighted your response. Some boxing commissions actually set a limit.

Excuse me... I did not say that Pacquio should not fight in the weight class... I said that unless he's letting these guys fight at their full weight then he should not be getting full credit for beating them.

The fact still remains that he is trying to weight drain them so that he can beat them.

I did not say that because Mosely has to dehydrate that it is unsafe... he has to do that anyway... but there is a certain point were it becomes too much for him to be at all effective.

Whether you want a limit fighters can "rehydrate (why did you put rehydrate in quotationg makrs exactly ) or not is irelevant... we are talking about the system that is inj place and isn't going to change just so pac can cover an 8th division.

Like I've said Pac has already been drying up the same as every other boxer out there... every belt, every division. He is following the system the same as everybody else all the way up... he is up against guys to big for him now which is why he's trying to make them dehydrate further than they can to give him a better chance of beating them.

Doesn't matter what way you spin it, wthe way you say thingsa should be done etc... that is the way things ARE.

Super Banthems, Lightweights, Light Welterweights... all fine... pac is big enough and strong enough for all of them... Welterweight is past his limit and he's trying to weight drain them.

End of.

[fan johnny]

140.1-147 is the Welterweight class? Wow... you learn something everyday.

Maybe if we still had same day weigh ins then people who walk around at or near to 147 would be Welterweights...

But that's not how things are any more, as I have said things have changed... virtually everybody drys up now... they find a weight that they can do it effectivly at.

Guys who campaign at 140/147/154/160... what ever... none of them walk around at the weight anymore.

Things have changed since same day weigh ins and a whole entire division of established fighters aren't going to be shifted up a division or two just so that manny can dominate an 8th division. By beating the man at Light Welterweight he's already beat the top fighter of the people who would end up in the 147 class anyway if we had same day weigh ins again

Every time Pac has fought with the exception of ODLH I guarantee you that he will have been heavier than he was when he weighed in, even Hatton... the same habits of drying up apply to Pac too... not a problem then though is it? If you weighed Pacman in the ring against Hatton he would of been in the Welterweight divison... it's a good thing that we go off the WEIGH IN then isn't it?

The more he moves up the less he'll have to do it... eventually he will get too far and that's just a fact. That's the only reason Mosely is tempted down is because Roach suspects that he has finally moved up to the limit were these guys are just too big.

Well in that case fight guys who are weighing in as Light Welters... If guys weighing in as Welters are too big then they're too big.

You agree about the definition of the welterweight class and proclaim fighter safety is the reason Pacquiao shouldn't be fighting in the welterweight class. You state it's unsafe for Mosley because he has to dehydrate to make weight. What an absolute hypocrite! If you were concerned about fighter safety you would put in a limit a fighter can be allowed to "rehydrate". I already highlighted your response. Some boxing commissions actually set a limit.

Excuse me... I did not say that Pacquio should not fight in the weight class... I said that unless he's letting these guys fight at their full weight then he should not be getting full credit for beating them.

The fact still remains that he is trying to weight drain them so that he can beat them.

I did not say that because Mosely has to dehydrate that it is unsafe... he has to do that anyway... but there is a certain point were it becomes too much for him to be at all effective.

Whether you want a limit fighters can "rehydrate (why did you put rehydrate in quotationg makrs exactly ) or not is irelevant... we are talking about the system that is inj place and isn't going to change just so pac can cover an 8th division.

Like I've said Pac has already been drying up the same as every other boxer out there... every belt, every division. He is following the system the same as everybody else all the way up... he is up against guys to big for him now which is why he's trying to make them dehydrate further than they can to give him a better chance of beating them.

Doesn't matter what way you spin it, wthe way you say thingsa should be done etc... that is the way things ARE.

Super Banthems, Lightweights, Light Welterweights... all fine... pac is big enough and strong enough for all of them... Welterweight is past his limit and he's trying to weight drain them.

End of.

Just read the thread back dude.... I give up.... your a lost cause.... YOU WIN... I give even you reps... .Pacquiao fights Mosley and wins, It's just so...Unfair! they should make Pacquiao give belt back...

[AdamGB]

I think you'll find you're the lost cause.

If you can't accept that

1) Pacman and everybody he has fought from 106 pounds upwards have to dry up to reach the weight, he was big enough to beat the guys who fight at those weights

2) that people who fight at welterweight are too big for him

3) he is trying to weight drain Welterweights and but full credit as a welterweight

then I don't know what the point in bothering with you is.

That's how the game is and that's what he's doing. Those are facts, not opinions.

EVERY division he has campaigned at as he's moved up in weight he has had to dehydrate for the weigh in and has fought against fighters who have had to do the same, that's the way boxing is done now that weighins have changed to 24 hours... it's like that for every fighter in every division... that isn't going to change, same day weigh ins won't come back just because Pac has reached his physical limit and you want him to be considered a legitimate welterweight.

What you are essentially saying is that all the guys at 147 should piss off up to light middle weight so that Pacman can be a legitimate Welterweight... the only problem with that is that everybody who fights at 135/140 would also have to move up with him (because like I said you can't apply a special rule to Pac's and his division only... just so he can get an 8th belt) - he's already beaten the best of those guys... so what would it prove? You'd just be slapping the name Welterweight on a bunch of guys he's already beaten.

I'm guessing you know this though and are just trying to punk out of the discussion... thanks for the rep.

[fan johnny]

I think you'll find you're the lost cause.

If you can't accept that

1) Pacman and everybody he has fought from 106 pounds upwards have to dry up to reach the weight, he was big enough to beat the guys who fight at those weights

2) that people who fight at welterweight are too big for him

3) he is trying to weight drain Welterweights and but full credit as a welterweight

then I don't know what the point in bothering with you is.

That's how the game is and that's what he's doing. Those are facts, not opinions.

EVERY division he has campaigned at as he's moved up in weight he has had to dehydrate for the weigh in and has fought against fighters who have had to do the same, that's the way boxing is done now that weighins have changed to 24 hours... it's like that for every fighter in every division... that isn't going to change, same day weigh ins won't come back just because Pac has reached his physical limit and you want him to be considered a legitimate welterweight.

What you are essentially saying is that all the guys at 147 should piss off up to light middle weight so that Pacman can be a legitimate Welterweight... the only problem with that is that everybody who fights at 135/140 would also have to move up with him (because like I said you can't apply a special rule to Pac's and his division only... just so he can get an 8th belt) - he's already beaten the best of those guys... so what would it prove? You'd just be slapping the name Welterweight on a bunch of guys he's already beaten.

I'm guessing you know this though and are just trying to punk out of the discussion... thanks for the rep.

Half the the stuff you write in this thread is contradiction so I know you must be playn'. It's pretty easy to shoot your sh*t down. I play... maybe later, I got grown up things to do right now....

[AdamGB]

Haha, go on then... Punk out, punk x

[Addicted to_boxing]

Mosley would make 144 even just fine, stop making excuses.

Pac could make 147 just fine like he did vs ODLH so stop making excuses.