Marciano and Generational Bias

[holmcall]

Generational Bias

I have always adhered to two principles. The first one is to train hard
and get in the best possible physical condition. The second is to forget all about the other fellow until you face him in the ring and the bell sounds for the fight.
–Rocky Marciano

The latest is the greatest
–Anonymous
　
I loved Rocky Marciano for any number of reasons not the least of
which is that he was from my era and my generation. That he was an Italian didn’t hurt much either. I also thought he was a great fighter who did what he had to do against everyone they put in from of him. After all, 49-0 is a perfect record.
　
Of course, looking through the prism of nostalgia makes everything
seem better and I like to play out old school memories just like
other old timers. However, I also try to be thoughtful and objective
when making comparisons between the past and the present–and that’s where the issue of generational prejudice comes in (some call it “era” prejudice). And that’s where comparisons between The Rock and modern fighters come in as well.
　
Should he be compared to recent heavyweights in the mold of Ali,
George Foreman or Wladimir Klitschko? Of course not. He simply was not big enough, but how about comparing him to the likes of the following who fight at Cruiserweight (175-200 lb (90.72 kg):

O’Neil Bell
Enzo Maccarinelli
Vadim Tokarev
Jean Marc Mormeck
David Haye
Emmanuel Nwodo
Matt Godfrey
Steve Cunningham
Rico Hoye
Krzysztof Wlodarczyk
Marco Huck
Grigory Drozd
Pietro Aurino
Johnathon Banks
BJ Flores
Felix Cora Jr.
Dale Brown
Valery Brudov
Wayne Braithwaite
Guillermo Jones
Chris Bryd

Rocky fought at a disciplined 183-188 for the most part which places him in the middle of the cruiserweight limit. Looking back, how would he have done against guys like Marvin Camel, Lee Roy Murphy, Carlos Deleon, Dwight Braxton, Boone Pultz, Ralf Rocchigiani Bobby Czyz, Orlin Norris, Fabrice Tiozzo, Vassily Jirov, Virgil Hill, and James Toney? Perhaps the best matches would have been against Evander Holyfield (when he was a cruiserweight champion) and Dariuz Michalczewski.

When I compare Marciano to the top cruiserweights, I am comparing
apples to apples except for the difference in era. The task, however, is to engage facts before nostalgia. The lesson is to take into account all essential variables when making comparisons between old and modern. Variable such as number of fights, era (for example, the 70‘s were a great time for heavyweights and the 80‘s for middleweights), stamina, training techniques and methodology, records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work,quality of opposition, management, etc.

When this is done, myth is stripped away from facts. When this is done, you are not engaging generational prejudice. Of course, I must confess when I do this; Rocky Marciano quickly becomes the greatest cruiserweight in history.
　

[yvonne]

Generational Bias

I have always adhered to two principles. The first one is to train hard
and get in the best possible physical condition. The second is to forget all about the other fellow until you face him in the ring and the bell sounds for the fight.
–Rocky Marciano

The latest is the greatest
–Anonymous
　
I loved Rocky Marciano for any number of reasons not the least of
which is that he was from my era and my generation. That he was an Italian didn’t hurt much either. I also thought he was a great fighter who did what he had to do against everyone they put in from of him. After all, 49-0 is a perfect record.
　
Of course, looking through the prism of nostalgia makes everything
seem better and I like to play out old school memories just like
other old timers. However, I also try to be thoughtful and objective
when making comparisons between the past and the present–and that’s where the issue of generational prejudice comes in (some call it “era” prejudice). And that’s where comparisons between The Rock and modern fighters come in as well.
　
Should he be compared to recent heavyweights in the mold of Ali,
George Foreman or Wladimir Klitschko? Of course not. He simply was not big enough, but how about comparing him to the likes of the following who fight at Cruiserweight (175-200 lb (90.72 kg):

O’Neil Bell
Enzo Maccarinelli
Vadim Tokarev
Jean Marc Mormeck
David Haye
Emmanuel Nwodo
Matt Godfrey
Steve Cunningham
Rico Hoye
Krzysztof Wlodarczyk
Marco Huck
Grigory Drozd
Pietro Aurino
Johnathon Banks
BJ Flores
Felix Cora Jr.
Dale Brown
Valery Brudov
Wayne Braithwaite
Guillermo Jones
Chris Bryd

Rocky fought at a disciplined 183-188 for the most part which places him in the middle of the cruiserweight limit. Looking back, how would he have done against guys like Marvin Camel, Lee Roy Murphy, Carlos Deleon, Dwight Braxton, Boone Pultz, Ralf Rocchigiani Bobby Czyz, Orlin Norris, Fabrice Tiozzo, Vassily Jirov, Virgil Hill, and James Toney? Perhaps the best matches would have been against Evander Holyfield (when he was a cruiserweight champion) and Dariuz Michalczewski.

When I compare Marciano to the top cruiserweights, I am comparing
apples to apples except for the difference in era. The task, however, is to engage facts before nostalgia. The lesson is to take into account all essential variables when making comparisons between old and modern. Variable such as number of fights, era (for example, the 70‘s were a great time for heavyweights and the 80‘s for middleweights), stamina, training techniques and methodology, records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work,quality of opposition, management, etc.

When this is done, myth is stripped away from facts. When this is done, you are not engaging generational prejudice. Of course, I must confess when I do this; Rocky Marciano quickly becomes the greatest cruiserweight in history.
　

Great statement mate,and i have to agree with the point.Marciano was a relentless raw breed of cruiser and heavy weight fighter there ever was.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Im confused

Rocky Marciano and Generational Bias

[CFH]

Im confused

Rocky Marciano and Generational Bias

I believe Holmcall is a writer. I would image that he wrote that piece and simply transferred it here.

[holmcall]

Yes

[CFH]

Sorry for deleting my post, I reread your article and was forming a different response when you replied. If I'd known you had replied, I would've left it up there.

So you feel Marciano would have beaten the likes of Holyfield, Toney etc. at CW?

Regardless, there's still a huge difference between being considered the best Cruiser of all time and the best Heavy of all time, I think that's what people take issue with.

[holmcall]

Probably so, but I am not saying he is the best Heavy of all time. I am trying to strip away any bias my geneeration mught have influenced me with and look at this in objective terms. Would he have beaten a 230 pound Holyfield? Doubt it. Would he have beaten a Holyfield who beat The Camden Buzzsaw? Yes, I have no doubt he would have.

[holmcall]

Aside from some evolutionaty factors, the heavweight division is the only one that has been variable--as fighters get bigger and bigger. The other weight classes have remained fixed.

[CFH]

I suppose I should've given my opinion as well.

Like I said before, I don't know all that much about Marciano aside from his reputation. I think I've seen footage of two of his fights, so I'm far from an expert.

However, based upon what I do know, I think with an even playing field he would have a decent shot of defeating any Cruiserweight I can think of.

As I also said before, I think his detractors main problem with him is that he's referred to as the greatest Heavyweight of all time, which frankly is not true.

[Spicoli]

I dont think it's bias so much as being stuck in what you-we know,what you can put your finger on at the moment.Happens all of the time with past fighters.And in todays media we are a bit spoiled,everything is at the touch of a finger.When you see a fighter....live, his rise and fall and length of entire career,there is nothing like that in the world and every generation thinks that they are seeing the very best....it sticks with you.What we cannot see is whats down the road in relation to the sport.New rules,new divisions,etc etc.We get a general idea but have to wait on that good ol' hindsight.....Maybe I'm off the reservation but by saying Marciano is the best Cruiser its to blur what he was at the time.Cruisers literally did not exist.In stature and in weight,he would have been categorized as one by todays standards but we did not know then what we know now.Times change,we evolve as do sports.Compare ANY athlete of a major sport during the 40's 50's and there is quite a contrast to todays athletes?Shite,off on a ramble here.

[holmcall]

I dont think it's bias so much as being stuck in what you-we know,what you can put your finger on at the moment.Happens all of the time with past fighters.And in todays media we are a bit spoiled,everything is at the touch of a finger.When you see a fighter....live, his rise and fall and length of entire career,there is nothing like that in the world and every generation thinks that they are seeing the very best....it sticks with you.What we cannot see is whats down the road in relation to the sport.New rules,new divisions,etc etc.We get a general idea but have to wait on that good ol' hindsight.....Maybe I'm off the reservation but by saying Marciano is the best Cruiser its to blur what he was at the time.Cruisers literally did not exist.In stature and in weight,he would have been categorized as one by todays standards but we did not know then what we know now.Times change,we evolve as do sports.Compare ANY athlete of a major sport during the 40's 50's and there is quite a contrast to todays athletes?Shite,off on a ramble here.

I don't buy that. I'll concede the heavyweight point, but in a million years will I go so far as to say he was less than the elite when it came or comes to his weight today.

[holmcall]

Am I being truculent?

[Spicoli]

I dont think it's bias so much as being stuck in what you-we know,what you can put your finger on at the moment.Happens all of the time with past fighters.And in todays media we are a bit spoiled,everything is at the touch of a finger.When you see a fighter....live, his rise and fall and length of entire career,there is nothing like that in the world and every generation thinks that they are seeing the very best....it sticks with you.What we cannot see is whats down the road in relation to the sport.New rules,new divisions,etc etc.We get a general idea but have to wait on that good ol' hindsight.....Maybe I'm off the reservation but by saying Marciano is the best Cruiser its to blur what he was at the time.Cruisers literally did not exist.In stature and in weight,he would have been categorized as one by todays standards but we did not know then what we know now.Times change,we evolve as do sports.Compare ANY athlete of a major sport during the 40's 50's and there is quite a contrast to todays athletes?Shite,off on a ramble here.

I don't buy that. I'll concede the heavyweight point, but in a million years will I go so far as to say he was less than the elite when it came or comes to his weight today.

How'd you get there?My man I'm speaking to the bigger picture,not dismissing the man.What I'm saying is that don't we question him on a broader scale by just re categorizing him?The man was a heavyweight for his era,a great one....but could they ever imagine size wise the top hvys of the last 10 + years.I'm not dismissing him as a fighter on the intangibles but heavyweight are not what they once were.Hence the Marciano vs Holyfield at cruiser ehh?Remember...bigger is not always better

Oh and I like Holyfield by TKO late,many cuts

[Slowmotion426]

Yes

I certainly wouldn't compare him to Ali. Ali lost what- 5 fights? Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down, Bugner fought both Ali and Frasier (combined, a total of 39 rounds) and neither could put him down.

I think those of you pining for Ali and Frasier are fooling yourselves, they were not invincible.

[generalbulldog]

Yes

I certainly wouldn't compare him to Ali. Ali lost what- 5 fights?

You're right I wouldn't compare Marciano to Ali. Ali past his prime beat HW legends in their prime while Marciano in his prime beat great fighters that were shot, old, or both. Marciano's greatest victory was beating a shot 37 year old Joe Louis. And how old were Walcott, Charles, Moore when Marciano fought them?

Marciano's fans act like he beat a prime Louis, Moore, Charles, Walcott, when those guys were all old/shot.