If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Froch,

[Rantcatrat]

Can one of the mods prevent MafiaJoey from posting about Pacquiao? I would love to discuss with him the best at 68' or at 75', but he's gone overboard with his hatred for all things Pacquiao. Maybe you should make a board just for him so he can sit and put down Pacquiao all day? He never posts about anything else. He doesn't even have anything new or constructive to add. It's tired, man, very, very tired. Moreover, it's consistently ad hominum crap from him, referring to people as Pactards and the like. In reality, he's the only Pactard in here. No one else talks about Pacquiao half as much as he does.

As an aside, I don't agree with Miles opinion on Pacquiao, but at least he attempt to apply logic. And in Miles defense, at least Miles acknowledges the greatness in Pacqiao, even if he disputes how great he is.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't make it a habit of putting people down for not moving up in weight. For example, I wouldn't give Pacquiao grief for not fighting Martinez. Would it be great for his legacy? Sure, if he beat Martinez, he might make it into the top 10 ATG, either way, we would have witnessed something unparalleled in boxing. In fact, I'd give Pacquiao credit just for taking on Martinez, if he beat him, it would be ridiculous.

Back to Martinez, Martinez has options at middleweight. If he has a few more years in the sport, I don't see why he wouldn't clean out the division before moving up. He only just got to middleweight. I actually think Sturm is a good fight and so is Geale for that matter after his win over Sylvester. There is nothing wrong with cleaning out a division and Sturm has been a champion in the division at one time or another for quite a while. I disagree with Marble, I wouldn't categorize Sturm as a bum, a cherry picker, sure, but not a bum. I also don't think of Sergio as a big middleweight. He's grown into being a middleweight, but a big middleweight, he is not. And if Arthur Abraham was small at 68', Sergio is even smaller because he fought most of his career at 147/154 where AA fought it at 160.

Can someone point me to a boxer that Pacquiao has ducked at or around his weight class? Who do you want to see him fight at welterweight or junior welterweight? Three months ago, I wanted to see him fight Andre Berto, now clearly, that would have been a blow out. I just can't point to anyone. If you look at the ring rankings, there isn't one interesting fight at or around his weight class other than Timothy Bradley. And I think he if beats Marquez, Bradley will be his next opponent. He's effectively cleaned out the welterweight division. I recall a few years ago I criticized Mayweather for not fighting the best at welterweight, but instead fighting Hatton, a real junior welterweight, at welterweight. I can't make that same criticism of Pacquiao and that means something, I think.

Just to be clear. Most of the members of Joe Louis Bum of the Month Club weren't bums either.

[Ant Live]

and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?

So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.

Martinez weight class is 160(middle)!!! If Ward or any of the others want to make that fight, then they should meet in the middle. I'm not a fan of catch weight. But for Martinez to jump weight to 169, he can be putting himself at a disadvantage. Fair fighting is my point. Will Ward or any of the other come down to 160? Better yet, can they without half killing themself?
Martinez is willing to come down to 154 to make a big fight, but no one is speaking his name. Cotto rather wait and fight Jcc Jr and stay on the shelf. Pacman said he will never go back to 150(154). Floyd is retired. Strum don't want it. Angulo don't want it. DLH don't want it for Saul. The only person that want it, no one want to see hm get it. Paul Williams, At least until he get his status back up.
Bottom line, if a suppermiddle weight want to fight Martinez, they should meet in the middle(164). Whomever it will be, I won't expect any of them to blow Martinez out!!!

Martinez said he cannot make 154 anymore, so anyone that wants to challenge him from a lower weight class has to fight at 160.

So Pacquiao, Mayweather, Cotto and everyone else from the lower weights has to fight Martinez at 160 to be a fair fight but for Martinez to fight at 168 against Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute is unfair?

Martinez said he's willing to go down at a catchweight to fight Manny and/or Cotto.

[MMASUX]

How about we keep Pac's name the fuck out of this thread? The question was martinez vs the SMW, yet every thread has to have Pac or Floyd's name brought into it. Anyways, as much as i hate catch weights, i would like to see Martinez vs Ward or Froch. There is absolutely no one for him to fight at 160 or 154, so this seems like a good idea to me.

[Spicoli]

I'm more interested in cleaning out the division but in the era of division bouncing and grabbing for network names prob won't happen. Froch, Ward and company have there own schtuff to sort out. We have some serious quality talent emerging now and should sit back and soak it in. Too much of a microwave mentality.

[Mr140]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

[blegit]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

[blegit]

But back to the topic. We have to cut Martinez some slack here. Ward and Froch are tied up so lets not jump the gun. I think we should be lobbying for Martinez/Bute but I'm not so sure what Bute wants to do. He hasn't exactly been fighting anybody within a fair shot of beating him. And I can't see Martinez/Pac. Thats really just unfair for Pac and I'm sure his entire team will continue to steer clear of that unless they are just going to cash out.

[JazMerkin]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

This. It's also worth pointing out that he went pro very early at 16, an age at which no one in the US or UK would even be allowed to. Obviously it varies very much person to person, but it's normally around this age that boxers start to grow. Mayweather at this age weighed around the same as Pacquiao I believe, while even someone like Amir Khan was only a Bantamweight. Like I say it varies, someone like Hatton actually fought at 67kg at the same age, but it's not really accurate to say Mayweather would have to jump to CW, more like he'd have to go to Middleweight based on where they both were at the ages of 18-19.

Anyway back to the topic, I think Martinez has some hope. If Macklin somehow beats Sturm, he's got an opponent to tide him by & there's always a rubber match with Williams. But him going up another division is not that unreasonable. If he has somehow become the P4P #1 (I don't believe he has), then he's done it with probably the thinnest resume of anyone in recent memory. That's not to put him down but Pacquiao, Mayweather, Hopkins, Jones & Mosley had all done significantly more to take the top spot.

[generalbulldog]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

105 to 118 might be separated by 5 weight classes, but name me the guys that managed to win at least 1 of the major 4 world titles in those classes as they were moving through? If it's so easy there should be multiple guys doing it right?

The answer is it's not. Little men are built differently. Someone with great knowledge in the fight game told me that their body weight and physiology is different than higher weight fighters that's why 3 pounds is very significant. The average casual boxing fan thinks that 3 pounds is nothing, but if it wasn't boxing history would have guys that went through 5-6 of those small weight classes like it's nothing.

Prime example, Vic Darchinyan. He was a monster at 112 and 115 but doesn't look that great at 118. The average boxing fan without too much knowledge might think 112-118 is only 6 pounds and it's nothing, when for the lower weight guys it is significant.

[marbleheadmaui]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

[JazMerkin]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

Right, but Armstrong was also 19 or 20 (I may be wrong) when he began his pro career so that needs to be taken into account. Manny began at a 106, but he'd already gone up 113 within a year of his pro debut. At 19 he was a 122lber.

Also you're talking about ranked guys, well Pacquiao didn't beat anyone at Super-Flyweight, but you seem to be giving him credit for it. I may be misunderstanding your argument, but surely the fact that Armstrong fought a MW weighing in as a small welter is just as impressive.

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

[marbleheadmaui]

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

Right, but Armstrong was also 19 or 20 (I may be wrong) when he began his pro career so that needs to be taken into account. Manny began at a 106, but he'd already gone up 113 within a year of his pro debut. At 19 he was a 122lber.

Also you're talking about ranked guys, well Pacquiao didn't beat anyone at Super-Flyweight, but you seem to be giving him credit for it. I may be misunderstanding your argument, but surely the fact that Armstrong fought a MW weighing in as a small welter is just as impressive.

Let's be really clear. I consider what Armstrong did the most impressive accomplishment in the history of boxing. Nothing Manny has done is close in my view.

My issue is each time Manny jumps a hurdle few have done (and I've chosen the division description, though as I've demonstrated it doesn't really matter how one cuts the numbers, the results must be termed astonishingly impressive) some folks want to the start over and say "But Manny's only jumping 1-2 divisions what is the big deal?" without giving any credit for where Manny began or what he has already done.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.