If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Froch,

[generalbulldog]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

[KKisser]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

let me ask you miles, if you have a choice between fighting an opponent you could easily beat and another who would be difficult for almost the same amount of money, who would you go for? ... well there you go.

tbh i'd love to see that fight with sergio at 154 but it's not smart to do it right now when you know there's a lot more options at making greens with lesser risks.

[generalbulldog]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

[mafiajoey]

Question for all of you........



"IF" Martinez could make 154 you would still have excuses for Pac? He fought Margo at Junior Middleweight 154lb

Sounds like Catch weight comes with "Catch" terms, "Catch" intentions, "Catch" agendas, "Catch" excuses and the biggest "Catch" is it's easy to see who likes to use stats to there advantage when describing his accomplishments but want's to avoid them when it concerns a threat to him.

As much as you guys consider me a Pac hater I really don't see Martinez beating Pac as easily as you think. Pac is amazing when in a war. He does better when hit.... I think Pac wins.

[JazMerkin]

Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.

I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).

[captainanddew]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

[JazMerkin]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?

I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?

[captainanddew]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?

I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?

what muscle mass? He's only 3 pounds bigger when he walks in the ring!!!

[JazMerkin]

someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.

Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds

Which one looks out of place? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)

Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145

I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.

Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?

I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?

what muscle mass? He's only 3 pounds bigger when he walks in the ring!!!

He's not carrying 10 lbs of water weight, you can tell that looking at his body. Look at him in the ring for the Oscar fight compared to the Mosley one and he looks noticeably bigger. He's grown into the weight particularly over the last 18 months. Like I said, he could make 140, but not 135, at least not comfortably.