Chavez Jr - Andy Lee / June 16th in Texas

[TitoFan]

Tito, I disagree with VD all the time, but I have to admit, Chavez is materializing into a real fighter. Consdering he's already beat Rubio and Zbik (close fight), if he beats Lee, he has better wins than anyone at middleweight other than Sturm and Martinez. Fine, it's a weak division, I don't necessarily agree with it, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Still, Chavez Jr. is doing what he can in his division. It's tough to be too upset with that.

Bro, this is the way you have boxing debates. Intelligently. Otherwise, it degrades into a series of insults that take away from the arguments, and end up boring everyone in the forum. Too bad some dudes don't see it that way.

Anyway, I'm not saying Chavez isn't a good fighter by now. Obviously, he's got to have learned quite a few lessons from his ever-increasing number of fights. My point is, and has always been, that his record is bloated. Why? Because he never had any amateur fights. And because he never had any amateur fights, they have carried him along to the point where he was fighting bums even after winning 30-some fights. Which is why you cannot fairly compare his record to the records of other fighters who have taken the traditional route: extensive amateur career. And when these fighters turn pro, they're soon fighting very good fighters. A traditional fighter with a 15-0 record has already faced dangerous veterans with very good records themselves. Yes, Chavez is doing what he can with his division. But why has he been steered clear of Martinez? Hell.... he's got the 45-0-1 record. He should be fighting King Kong by now. Why continue to carefully pick and choose?

Where we might disagree is in the strength of the division. You go up and down Chavez record and, other than the two you mentioned (Rubio and Zbik), there's nothing. And Rubio and Zbik are hardly household names. Is this Chavez's fault? No. But it IS Chavez (or his team's) fault that they haven't gone after Martinez. Not even a token statement to fool us boxing fans. Nothing.

Chavez is in the right place at the right time and, if he avoids going up or down to where more dangerous opposition might be lurking, he could very well (at his age) make a run at the fabled 100 wins that his dad reached. A dad, I might add, that didn't fight a warm body until after his 45th fight, although he then fought world class competition on his way to 100 wins.

I just hate when it's ONLY about the record rather than the record AND the quality of the competition. It's misleading and it's wrong.

Sergio was hardly fighting king kong at this point in his career either... Martinez fought his 45th pro fight against a guy with a record of 16-6! in fact go up and down Martinez record and look for anyone aside from Margarito (who he lost to), and you'll find nothing as well. where's martinez "token statement to fool us boxing fans"? was it his 40th pro fight against a guy who had a record of 1-7-2? or was it his 42nd fight against a guy with a record of 3-35-2?

Lee can surely been seen as as much of a challenge as Bunema (30-5-2 at the time of the fight with martinez). so maybe this is the start of Chavez Jr taking on top competition...

instead of thinking intelligently and comparing the two careers, you just wanna debase Chavez Jr even tho he's following a similar pattern to that of Martinez who you hold is such high esteem.

lets see what happens in the future....instead of just hating.

I don't applaud Martinez fighting such bums so late into his career anymore than I would applaud it for anyone. Not to pick on Argentinians, who have produced many great fighters in the past... but sometimes it seems fighters from other countries feast on local bums, sometimes never even leaving their home country, until they have a fattened record. That being said... the only solution to this dilemma lies in the ring. When the hell are Chavez and Martinez going to get together? Who's holding up the works? I'm sure Martinez is aching for the opportunity.

None of this makes Chavez any less guilty of what I've mentioned in the past. He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and has been coddled. I still maintain that it's hardly fair to compare records of a 45-0-1 fighter with no amateur career, and a bunch of bums on his record.... against a 25-1 or 30-2 fighter with a solid amateur career, and who has been fighting solid competition since before his 10th fight. What is so wrong about any of this?

And as to VD's claim that the Chavez name has nothing to do with this? Bullshit. It has everything to do with it. Name ONE other fighter without the Chavez name that has gotten to such an outlandish record, feasting on mostly bums, and gotten the attention he's getting from the networks. ONE. Not a very long list, is it.

Yes the boy has improved since his beginnings. Most good fighters do. If not, he'd be out of boxing by now. But that doesn't change the facts.

[Rantcatrat]

Tito, I disagree with VD all the time, but I have to admit, Chavez is materializing into a real fighter. Consdering he's already beat Rubio and Zbik (close fight), if he beats Lee, he has better wins than anyone at middleweight other than Sturm and Martinez. Fine, it's a weak division, I don't necessarily agree with it, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Still, Chavez Jr. is doing what he can in his division. It's tough to be too upset with that.

Bro, this is the way you have boxing debates. Intelligently. Otherwise, it degrades into a series of insults that take away from the arguments, and end up boring everyone in the forum. Too bad some dudes don't see it that way.

Anyway, I'm not saying Chavez isn't a good fighter by now. Obviously, he's got to have learned quite a few lessons from his ever-increasing number of fights. My point is, and has always been, that his record is bloated. Why? Because he never had any amateur fights. And because he never had any amateur fights, they have carried him along to the point where he was fighting bums even after winning 30-some fights. Which is why you cannot fairly compare his record to the records of other fighters who have taken the traditional route: extensive amateur career. And when these fighters turn pro, they're soon fighting very good fighters. A traditional fighter with a 15-0 record has already faced dangerous veterans with very good records themselves. Yes, Chavez is doing what he can with his division. But why has he been steered clear of Martinez? Hell.... he's got the 45-0-1 record. He should be fighting King Kong by now. Why continue to carefully pick and choose?

Where we might disagree is in the strength of the division. You go up and down Chavez record and, other than the two you mentioned (Rubio and Zbik), there's nothing. And Rubio and Zbik are hardly household names. Is this Chavez's fault? No. But it IS Chavez (or his team's) fault that they haven't gone after Martinez. Not even a token statement to fool us boxing fans. Nothing.

Chavez is in the right place at the right time and, if he avoids going up or down to where more dangerous opposition might be lurking, he could very well (at his age) make a run at the fabled 100 wins that his dad reached. A dad, I might add, that didn't fight a warm body until after his 45th fight, although he then fought world class competition on his way to 100 wins.

I just hate when it's ONLY about the record rather than the record AND the quality of the competition. It's misleading and it's wrong.

At the end of the day, if he's facing good competition now, let's applaud it, as long as he's doing it drug free. It's hilarious that there are posters on this board that call Pac, Pacroid, when he has never been caught, and Junior has actually been caught, but it seems to fly under the radar. It's a shame that the Texas Commission didn't have it together to drug test Rubio and Junior after that fight because it actually hurts Junior's reputation if he had been clean. Given that he was in a DUI a few weeks before and then the weight loss, coupled with his history, it just adds to the skepticism that something is afoul with him.

I don't really see the point of denigrating Junior if he is clean and stepping up his game. He's taking on legitimate challengers now. If his progress recedes, let's reconsider him, but for now, he's doing what he should be doing. He was ducking Martinez for a while, but it appears the tide may be changing, with this Lee fight, and the winner being mandatory for Martinez.

Here's a story on Martinez being on ESPN Deportes and his involvement with organizations that are against domestic violence: http://www.boxingtalk.com/pag/article.php?aid=23186

[TitoFan]

Tito, I disagree with VD all the time, but I have to admit, Chavez is materializing into a real fighter. Consdering he's already beat Rubio and Zbik (close fight), if he beats Lee, he has better wins than anyone at middleweight other than Sturm and Martinez. Fine, it's a weak division, I don't necessarily agree with it, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Still, Chavez Jr. is doing what he can in his division. It's tough to be too upset with that.

Bro, this is the way you have boxing debates. Intelligently. Otherwise, it degrades into a series of insults that take away from the arguments, and end up boring everyone in the forum. Too bad some dudes don't see it that way.

Anyway, I'm not saying Chavez isn't a good fighter by now. Obviously, he's got to have learned quite a few lessons from his ever-increasing number of fights. My point is, and has always been, that his record is bloated. Why? Because he never had any amateur fights. And because he never had any amateur fights, they have carried him along to the point where he was fighting bums even after winning 30-some fights. Which is why you cannot fairly compare his record to the records of other fighters who have taken the traditional route: extensive amateur career. And when these fighters turn pro, they're soon fighting very good fighters. A traditional fighter with a 15-0 record has already faced dangerous veterans with very good records themselves. Yes, Chavez is doing what he can with his division. But why has he been steered clear of Martinez? Hell.... he's got the 45-0-1 record. He should be fighting King Kong by now. Why continue to carefully pick and choose?

Where we might disagree is in the strength of the division. You go up and down Chavez record and, other than the two you mentioned (Rubio and Zbik), there's nothing. And Rubio and Zbik are hardly household names. Is this Chavez's fault? No. But it IS Chavez (or his team's) fault that they haven't gone after Martinez. Not even a token statement to fool us boxing fans. Nothing.

Chavez is in the right place at the right time and, if he avoids going up or down to where more dangerous opposition might be lurking, he could very well (at his age) make a run at the fabled 100 wins that his dad reached. A dad, I might add, that didn't fight a warm body until after his 45th fight, although he then fought world class competition on his way to 100 wins.

I just hate when it's ONLY about the record rather than the record AND the quality of the competition. It's misleading and it's wrong.

At the end of the day, if he's facing good competition now, let's applaud it, as long as he's doing it drug free. It's hilarious that there are posters on this board that call Pac, Pacroid, when he has never been caught, and Junior has actually been caught, but it seems to fly under the radar. It's a shame that the Texas Commission didn't have it together to drug test Rubio and Junior after that fight because it actually hurts Junior's reputation if he had been clean. Given that he was in a DUI a few weeks before and then the weight loss, coupled with his history, it just adds to the skepticism that something is afoul with him.

I don't really see the point of denigrating Junior if he is clean and stepping up his game. He's taking on legitimate challengers now. If his progress recedes, let's reconsider him, but for now, he's doing what he should be doing. He was ducking Martinez for a while, but it appears the tide may be changing, with this Lee fight, and the winner being mandatory for Martinez.

Here's a story on Martinez being on ESPN Deportes and his involvement with organizations that are against domestic violence: BOXINGTALK : MARTINEZ TO APPEAR ON ESPN DEPORTES

It seems to fly under the radar, because there are some posters in here who suffer from the old "double-standard" syndrome. Anybody else is even suspected of juicing... and they're all over them. But as you said... Chavez was involved in some very suspicious circumstances... and his fans look the other way. It's downright nauseating.

[Chino]

It's hilarious that there are posters on this board that call Pac, Pacroid, when he has never been caught, and Junior has actually been caught, but it seems to fly under the radar.

Interesting thing is that both Pac and Jr. are trained by the same team and both make a deal about random blood tests. I am surprised Khan is the only one from that team who is willing to take all random blood tests just like past Floyd opponents have.

I don't really see the point of denigrating Junior if he is clean and stepping up his game. He's taking on legitimate challengers now. If his progress recedes, let's reconsider him, but for now, he's doing what he should be doing. He was ducking Martinez for a while, but it appears the tide may be changing, with this Lee fight, and the winner being mandatory for Martinez.

Like I said, Jr. beating Martinez would be a bit humiliating. I mean, Jr is technically an amateur facing guys with double/triple his experience if you think about it. Martinez beating Jr. wouldn't really do much to his record, would it?

[El Kabong]

Andy Lee has to be one of the bigger punchers JC Jr has faced and although Lee might get hit too much John Duddy was able to hang with him for quite some time and Duddy was a pretty small middleweight. Lee has a pretty decent punch on him as well. I think it's an interesting match and given the whole deal surrounding JC Jr and a steady guy like Manny Steward in Lee's corner we just may have an upset on our hands....I'd watch the odds if I was you, perhaps they'll be the sign of trouble in JC Jr's camp, PED's, or something else going on.

[Rantcatrat]

It's hilarious that there are posters on this board that call Pac, Pacroid, when he has never been caught, and Junior has actually been caught, but it seems to fly under the radar.

Interesting thing is that both Pac and Jr. are trained by the same team and both make a deal about random blood tests. I am surprised Khan is the only one from that team who is willing to take all random blood tests just like past Floyd opponents have.

I don't really see the point of denigrating Junior if he is clean and stepping up his game. He's taking on legitimate challengers now. If his progress recedes, let's reconsider him, but for now, he's doing what he should be doing. He was ducking Martinez for a while, but it appears the tide may be changing, with this Lee fight, and the winner being mandatory for Martinez.

Like I said, Jr. beating Martinez would be a bit humiliating. I mean, Jr is technically an amateur facing guys with double/triple his experience if you think about it. Martinez beating Jr. wouldn't really do much to his record, would it?

I don't necessarily believe so. Junior has advantages in age, size, and trainer. He's 29, compared with Martinez's 37. He's also a huge middleweight whereas Martinez is a small middleweight. While Junior had a limited amateur background, compared to guys like Abril, who had over 200 amateur fights, or Rigondeaux, who had over 300, Martinez only had 40 amateur fights, and started boxing at age 20. Martinez had his first professional fight at age 22. Junior also had the benefits of having the creme de la creme of teams surrounding him from day one. Martinez didn't get a quality trainer until he moved to Spain, and even then, I'm not sure you can compare Gabriel Sarmiento with Freddie Roach.

I agree that it wouldn't be a huge blow to Junior's record if he lost to Martinez. I doubt he'd lose a lot of fans because of it.

Having said all that, beating Junior would not be as big of a legacy accomplishment in my mind, as beating Sturm, for example, or the winner of Geale/Pirog. However, think about the fighters that are the stars of boxing. Martinez is not in the group; Junior is in that group. He packs stadiums. His fights on HBO are among the highest-viewed fights on HBO. If Martinez beats Junior, he'll gain more traction with the Mexican fight fan. Moreover, the pay for the Junior fight probably would be more than it would be for Sturm or Geale/Pirog, at least the same, and for less risk.

Martinez first called out Cotto, another one of the stars of boxing. Cotto dismised the fight with the age-old cliche, about not making business sense. Cotto wanted either Junior or Mayweather. The same opponents Martinez wants and for the same reason.