Every Great Boxer Has a Flaw

[X]

Some of the great boxers were so good at some things that people thought they were bad at others. In many cases, they weren't bad at those things ..... just slightly less good.

Incidentally, I can't think what Sugar Ray Robinsons 'flaw' was. Nor Henry Armstrong?

[Beanflicker]

I was saying that about Floyd in the Pac fight. He just has never been a combination punched which is why he struggles the most with pressure fighters. His one punch at a time makes it hard to keep them off of him.

He's had 2 close fights in 19 years.

and both were pressure fighters

Yeah and he dominated the rematches so what's your point?

[Beanflicker]

Incidentally, I can't think what Sugar Ray Robinsons 'flaw' was. [/COLOR]

He had defensive flaws: people forget that he wasn't the hardest guy to hit in the world and often had to rely on his solid chin and toughness. If you're talking about defensive capabilities, he's not even in the same league as guys like Floyd or Pernell.

[powerpuncher]

I was saying that about Floyd in the Pac fight. He just has never been a combination punched which is why he struggles the most with pressure fighters. His one punch at a time makes it hard to keep them off of him.

He's had 2 close fights in 19 years.

and both were pressure fighters

Yeah and he dominated the rematches so what's your point?

That he has flaws

[Bill Paxtom]

Mayweather-Never throws in combinations.
Not an 8 piece combo, not even six consecutive punches thrown in 19 years.

RJJ- won with reflex agility and talent. He has no fundamentals. Not offensively, damn sure not defensively. His last 10 or so fights! Saying back to Glenn Johnson : horrible defense.

A lot more fighters, but those 2 for starters.

Serious Not one fighter in all of boxindom is 100% across the board.

Could it also be labeled as >

> a lesser strength
> not his best attribute

[El Kabong]

Mayweather-Never throws in combinations.
Not an 8 piece combo, not even six consecutive punches thrown in 19 years.

RJJ- won with reflex agility and talent. He has no fundamentals. Not offensively, damn sure not defensively. His last 10 or so fights! Saying back to Glenn Johnson : horrible defense.

A lot more fighters, but those 2 for starters.

Serious Not one fighter in all of boxindom is 100% across the board.

Could it also be labeled as >

> a lesser strength
> not his best attribute

....so you didn't list Ali's flaws

[Bill Paxtom]

El Kabong

Cassius Clay had many flaws.

And Muhammad Ali, had way too many flaws to put down on this 'site'.

First > Cassius Clay looked very good, in a poor Heavyweight Division.

Second > Muhammad Ali was also very good, but he was 'not' Great.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

"Now if you're looking for a 'great box-er'. Come in the barn and take a look for yourself" ......... Pussy Galore

[Beanflicker]

That he has flaws

Yet these so called flaws have never caused him to lose a fight... :roll eyes: even after, you know, nearly 20 years.

Every fighter should aspire to have that flaw.

[Master]

Flaw does not have to mean weakness just that they do not do it as well as what they are really good at. Tito had a bomb of a left hook but his right hand was average in comparison.

[TitoFan]

Every Rose Has Its Thorns...

Just like every cowboy has the same sad song.

And every night has its dawn.

[SlimTrae]

Good responses, but not on the mark.

Best example PBF vs Corley. We all know Floyd turned that into a fight. Yet his punches may have came often-but they weren't combos.

PBF vs Gatti. That fight he does throw combos, but they IMO resemble Tarver's combos: kinda robotic.
My argument isn't that Floyd chooses not to throw in combinations: he can't.

He is fast from point A to point B-Not like RJJ, Ray Leonard, they throw fast mad combos.

[SlimTrae]

I totally agree with Manny Stewards assessment of Shane Mosley: his jab is more of a range finder.

Solid, sound and has the fundamentals down.
Hook? Nasty!
But his jab was almost passive. I'd call that a major flaw for such a fine boxer puncher.

[SlimTrae]

My RJJ rebuttal:
His peers, Toney, Hopkins they used techniques called old school or fundamentals when defending.
JT & Hop don't fight the same, yet they both know how to evade shots by shoulder roll.
They both turn shots over when countering, Tarver also.
THEY BOTH turn their bodies in a way that leaves such a small window.
So when I allege Roy lacks fundamentals: specifically I mean his defense.
He simply does the rope-a-dope.
Covers up on the ropes or in a corner.
He doesn't take a subtle step, twist or pivot like Hop or Julio Cesar Chavez.
That's why everyone started kicking his ass. Not just because he has little punch resistance, but also he lacked the knowledge of a solid defence to replace what his youth did: reflexive mastery & impeccable timing.
Clearly gifts and talent, not the product of fundamentals.
And that's my argument as a fan, not a fighter!

[TitoFan]

Good responses, but not on the mark.

Best example PBF vs Corley. We all know Floyd turned that into a fight. Yet his punches may have came often-but they weren't combos.

PBF vs Gatti. That fight he does throw combos, but they IMO resemble Tarver's combos: kinda robotic.
My argument isn't that Floyd chooses not to throw in combinations: he can't.

He is fast from point A to point B-Not like RJJ, Ray Leonard, they throw fast mad combos.

Let me tell you about combos.

... and in this case I guess I'll be defending Floyd.

Combos are sometimes overrated. I'd rather see a fighter pick his spots for some well-placed, hard, meaningful shots... than a flurry of useless pitti-pat punches that are nothing but eye candy for the judges. Couple of cases in point: Calzaghe and DLH. I saw several fights where both put together the proverbial combo (the kind a Jim Lampley has orgasms over) and they didn't mean a damn thing. Yes... there are good combinations. But not every combination is a good one. And just because a fighter doesn't throw 20-punch combos doesn't make him any worse than one who does. You rewatch some of those things in slow motion and they don't accomplish a damn thing.

[Beanflicker]

Agreed with Tito and I think it's a bit naive to assume that just because a guy doesn't do something, that he CAN'T do something, especially when you are talking about virtuosos like Roy and Floyd who could do anything they wanted in the ring and made it look easy due to their physical gifts and ring IQ.

I mean really, as fast as Floyd is (especially in his prime at 130-140)... am I supposed to believe he couldn't put together a combination if he wanted to? That he was in the gym trying to throw 6 punches on the bag and just wasn't coordinated or agile enough to do it? Or is it more plausible that combinations just don't factor in to his defensive, "safety first" style?

Do I think that Roy, an olympic gold medalist (we all know he was), a guy who went 15 years undefeated (besides the avenged DQ loss) and won world titles from middleweight to heavyweight... that he never learned boxing fundamentals? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Roy's defence wasn't all about being fast: he had to have the fundamentals of movement and range to fight his style. And he wasn't a rope-a-doper: he was AMAZING at catching and rolling shots on the ropes and countering with his own brutal shots. Watch Roy Jones vs Brannon, that's not rope-a-dope, that's brilliant in-fighting coming from sound fundamentals and many years of learning in the gym. You can't accomplish what Roy did in his career without fundamentals. Yeah Jones sucked once he was in his mid 30s, but so did Leonard, Whitaker, Robinson, and just about every other quick slickster I can think of outside of Floyd and Bhop.