117-111 for HORN????? INVESTIGATION OPENED

[Ron Swanson]

I hear you Titofan. I think when someone has a terrible card like that they should be immediately suspended until a revue can be done.

But the guy has 68 fights and 2 questionable decisions have gone against him. The notion that boxing suffers from constant bad decisions is not only defeated by the numbers of all fights but in fact defeated by Pacqiaos CV

[Batman]

On the other hand............


Let's stop a little of the pontificating, pretending bad scores don't exist.
Horn may have very well been seen the winner in the fight, but 9 rounds to 3??

You put 20 judges instead of 3, and that one judge would fall totally outside the normal distribution of scores you would expect to see.
That sort of outlier usually means one of two things: INCOMPETENCE or CORRUPTION.


Any time boxing sees a score like this, it should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
That's the problem with boxing. It continues to ignore mediocrity.

It works both ways though, we accept that you need to take the title off the champion, we accept that there will always be hometown decisions, we accept that the volume of the crowd can influence a judge.

My question is if the score cards would have been 100% reversed would there have been anywhere near this level of controversy?

I'll answer for you, no, no there wouldn't .

[TitoFan]

On the other hand............


Let's stop a little of the pontificating, pretending bad scores don't exist.
Horn may have very well been seen the winner in the fight, but 9 rounds to 3??

You put 20 judges instead of 3, and that one judge would fall totally outside the normal distribution of scores you would expect to see.
That sort of outlier usually means one of two things: INCOMPETENCE or CORRUPTION.


Any time boxing sees a score like this, it should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
That's the problem with boxing. It continues to ignore mediocrity.

It works both ways though, we accept that you need to take the title off the champion, we accept that there will always be hometown decisions, we accept that the volume of the crowd can influence a judge.

My question is if the score cards would have been 100% reversed would there have been anywhere near this level of controversy?

I'll answer for you, no, no there wouldn't .

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

[Batman]

On the other hand............


Let's stop a little of the pontificating, pretending bad scores don't exist.
Horn may have very well been seen the winner in the fight, but 9 rounds to 3??

You put 20 judges instead of 3, and that one judge would fall totally outside the normal distribution of scores you would expect to see.
That sort of outlier usually means one of two things: INCOMPETENCE or CORRUPTION.


Any time boxing sees a score like this, it should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
That's the problem with boxing. It continues to ignore mediocrity.

It works both ways though, we accept that you need to take the title off the champion, we accept that there will always be hometown decisions, we accept that the volume of the crowd can influence a judge.

My question is if the score cards would have been 100% reversed would there have been anywhere near this level of controversy?

I'll answer for you, no, no there wouldn't .

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And yet if the score cards were 100% reversed this thread would not exist, that is the thing that annoys me, it would be accepted as Manny got the win and one judge scored it wide, as it is there is a massive conspiracy theory that Pac was screwed before he put the gloves on which just isn't true

[Ron Swanson]

On the other hand............


Let's stop a little of the pontificating, pretending bad scores don't exist.
Horn may have very well been seen the winner in the fight, but 9 rounds to 3??

You put 20 judges instead of 3, and that one judge would fall totally outside the normal distribution of scores you would expect to see.
That sort of outlier usually means one of two things: INCOMPETENCE or CORRUPTION.


Any time boxing sees a score like this, it should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
That's the problem with boxing. It continues to ignore mediocrity.

It works both ways though, we accept that you need to take the title off the champion, we accept that there will always be hometown decisions, we accept that the volume of the crowd can influence a judge.

My question is if the score cards would have been 100% reversed would there have been anywhere near this level of controversy?

I'll answer for you, no, no there wouldn't .

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And the last bit is where you lose the plot. Bob Arum was in charge of the show top to bottoms. So Bob Arum had a hand in who was selected. And Bob Arum will profit from this decision. All too often we get so focused we don't see the whole picture. Hurting this judge won't fix corruption. Transparency in the process would fix corruption. Guess who will fight transparency every step of the way?

[TitoFan]

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And yet if the score cards were 100% reversed this thread would not exist, that is the thing that annoys me, it would be accepted as Manny got the win and one judge scored it wide, as it is there is a massive conspiracy theory that Pac was screwed before he put the gloves on which just isn't true

No issues with that, once again. But fact of the matter is we had a very close fight. We had two judges see it as such, and one judge inexplicably giving Horn 9 rounds. The merry-go-round just keeps going round and round. Some of us complain... others brush it off as business as usual... and it's on to the next fight and the next shitty judge scorecard.

Yes, if the score cards were reversed, there wouldn't have been such an outrage. And if Manny hadn't suffered so many serious headbutts, he may have handled the fight a little better. What if... what if... what if. Fact is it turned out the way it turned out.

I'm not a mourning Manny fan. I'm just a fight fan who's pretty sick and tired of lousy scoring and judges getting away with it.

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And the last bit is where you lose the plot. Bob Arum was in charge of the show top to bottoms. So Bob Arum had a hand in who was selected. And Bob Arum will profit from this decision. All too often we get so focused we don't see the whole picture. Hurting this judge won't fix corruption. Transparency in the process would fix corruption. Guess who will fight transparency every step of the way?

Ok, so first it's "if the scorecards were reversed"..... and now it's "it's Bob Arum's fault".


So are you suggesting Arum had that judge score the fight the way he did regardless of what would happen in the fight? Hey, who knows. Maybe you're more into the lowdown of fights than I am. Maybe Arum has boxing by the balls, and it's all one big orchestrated fix.

Unfortunately, it's not Bob Arum who gets paid to judge the fights. It's the (cough) professional judges who we pay and entrust to do a job competently and accurately. It is their handiwork that gets held up to the bright lights for all of us to see. It is they who ultimately decide who won and who lost the fight. Not only that, but by how much.

Excuse me if I don't veer off the judge and blame Arum for this. Either way, there should be an investigation. If it goes back to Arum, kick his ass out of boxing altogether, or even bring him up on charges... I couldn't care less.

My point here is that scoring continues to be abysmal, and all we do is defend it or deflect the issue.


Sad.

[Ron Swanson]

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And yet if the score cards were 100% reversed this thread would not exist, that is the thing that annoys me, it would be accepted as Manny got the win and one judge scored it wide, as it is there is a massive conspiracy theory that Pac was screwed before he put the gloves on which just isn't true

No issues with that, once again. But fact of the matter is we had a very close fight. We had two judges see it as such, and one judge inexplicably giving Horn 9 rounds. The merry-go-round just keeps going round and round. Some of us complain... others brush it off as business as usual... and it's on to the next fight and the next shitty judge scorecard.

Yes, if the score cards were reversed, there wouldn't have been such an outrage. And if Manny hadn't suffered so many serious headbutts, he may have handled the fight a little better. What if... what if... what if. Fact is it turned out the way it turned out.

I'm not a mourning Manny fan. I'm just a fight fan who's pretty sick and tired of lousy scoring and judges getting away with it.

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And the last bit is where you lose the plot. Bob Arum was in charge of the show top to bottoms. So Bob Arum had a hand in who was selected. And Bob Arum will profit from this decision. All too often we get so focused we don't see the whole picture. Hurting this judge won't fix corruption. Transparency in the process would fix corruption. Guess who will fight transparency every step of the way?

Ok, so first it's "if the scorecards were reversed"..... and now it's "it's Bob Arum's fault".


So are you suggesting Arum had that judge score the fight the way he did regardless of what would happen in the fight? Hey, who knows. Maybe you're more into the lowdown of fights than I am. Maybe Arum has boxing by the balls, and it's all one big orchestrated fix.

Unfortunately, it's not Bob Arum who gets paid to judge the fights. It's the (cough) professional judges who we pay and entrust to do a job competently and accurately. It is their handiwork that gets held up to the bright lights for all of us to see. It is they who ultimately decide who won and who lost the fight. Not only that, but by how much.

Excuse me if I don't veer off the judge and blame Arum for this. Either way, there should be an investigation. If it goes back to Arum, kick his ass out of boxing altogether, or even bring him up on charges... I couldn't care less.

My point here is that scoring continues to be abysmal, and all we do is defend it or deflect the issue.


Sad.

I never said a word about if the scorecards were reversed. So no idea why you put that quote in a reply to me.

And Arum has already been caught on corruption, video taped making bribes in fact. So things get even less transparent and business runs on.

What's sad is you are the one deflecting from the real issue and you don't realize it. Getting rid of a judge does nothing to fix judging. First of many steps to fix judging would be the completely obvious of removing promoters from the process of selecting judges.

[TitoFan]

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And yet if the score cards were 100% reversed this thread would not exist, that is the thing that annoys me, it would be accepted as Manny got the win and one judge scored it wide, as it is there is a massive conspiracy theory that Pac was screwed before he put the gloves on which just isn't true

No issues with that, once again. But fact of the matter is we had a very close fight. We had two judges see it as such, and one judge inexplicably giving Horn 9 rounds. The merry-go-round just keeps going round and round. Some of us complain... others brush it off as business as usual... and it's on to the next fight and the next shitty judge scorecard.

Yes, if the score cards were reversed, there wouldn't have been such an outrage. And if Manny hadn't suffered so many serious headbutts, he may have handled the fight a little better. What if... what if... what if. Fact is it turned out the way it turned out.

I'm not a mourning Manny fan. I'm just a fight fan who's pretty sick and tired of lousy scoring and judges getting away with it.

Yeah thanks for answering for me. Saved me a few keystrokes.

Regardless, it doesn't make this any less of a horrible score of a fight I imagine the judge was watching live and from the same vantage point as the other two.

Incompetence or corruption. Only two plausible explanations for such a shit score.

Until boxing starts holding judges' feet to the fire for horrible scoring, we'll continue on this hamster wheel indefinitely.

And the last bit is where you lose the plot. Bob Arum was in charge of the show top to bottoms. So Bob Arum had a hand in who was selected. And Bob Arum will profit from this decision. All too often we get so focused we don't see the whole picture. Hurting this judge won't fix corruption. Transparency in the process would fix corruption. Guess who will fight transparency every step of the way?

Ok, so first it's "if the scorecards were reversed"..... and now it's "it's Bob Arum's fault".


So are you suggesting Arum had that judge score the fight the way he did regardless of what would happen in the fight? Hey, who knows. Maybe you're more into the lowdown of fights than I am. Maybe Arum has boxing by the balls, and it's all one big orchestrated fix.

Unfortunately, it's not Bob Arum who gets paid to judge the fights. It's the (cough) professional judges who we pay and entrust to do a job competently and accurately. It is their handiwork that gets held up to the bright lights for all of us to see. It is they who ultimately decide who won and who lost the fight. Not only that, but by how much.

Excuse me if I don't veer off the judge and blame Arum for this. Either way, there should be an investigation. If it goes back to Arum, kick his ass out of boxing altogether, or even bring him up on charges... I couldn't care less.

My point here is that scoring continues to be abysmal, and all we do is defend it or deflect the issue.


Sad.

I never said a word about if the scorecards were reversed. So no idea why you put that quote in a reply to me.

And Arum has already been caught on corruption, video taped making bribes in fact. So things get even less transparent and business runs on.

What's sad is you are the one deflecting from the real issue and you don't realize it. Getting rid of a judge does nothing to fix judging. First of many steps to fix judging would be the completely obvious of removing promoters from the process of selecting judges.

Ron, I agree. Arum is a detriment to boxing and should be removed for the good of the sport. Yes... that would be the first step, so we agree there also. But I'm not gonna automatically deflect blame to Arum and leave judges squeaky clean when they turn in scorecards like this. Let's make the door wide enough for Arum, AND.... some of these inept/ corrupt judges. It's the judge's name on the scorecard. He should be held responsible. The other two did a reputable/ defensible job.

[brocktonblockbust]

****of course if the cards were reversed this thread wouldnt exist bcuz pac won the fight by no less than 2 points*****

[erics44]

setting a dangerous precedent innit

[Ron Swanson]

So you know on the revue the judges scored it for Horn. All 5 judges gave Horn 1, 6 and 12. 4 of 5 judges gave him 3 other rounds and 3 of 5 judges gave him the 10th. Not sure how 2 judges didn't give him the 10th, Pac did nothing that round. I forget the rounds where 4 of 5 gave it to Horn.

End result 7-5 by majority. 3 of the 5 rounds they gave to Pac unanimously.

[Gandalf]

It was a close fight with Horn starting better and winning the majority of the rounds in the first half. In the second half Pac came on and a huge round 9, but he seemed to gas and Horn outworked him over the last 3. Pac was the cleaner fighter, Horn was the busier fighter. I guess it goes on what you like. I like fighters who take it to their opponent and outwork them and I think Horn did that, but can see it the other way too. Should be a rematch, would be a good fight. This was far more enjoyable than Kov/Ward or a bunch of other recent fights IMO. Very entertaining with fighters really earning their paycheck.

[brocktonblockbust]

WALRUS called AAA

[Ron Swanson]

Crazy stuff going on with this team. Roach said Manny hasn't spoken with him since the fight and he hasn't been paid. Now Manny says he hasn't been paid

[TitoFan]

Well..... I know one guy who HAS been paid...... the 117-111 judge.