Thread: Closing the gap-getting inside

My son is an 18 yr old lt hvy weight amateur, 2 years training, two gold gloves-novice fights, 5-10", 175 ex football player, natural body puncher, can mix with solid pros inside but does not have a great jab and is not a defense first fighter, in other words he takes a lot of shots on the perimeter and on the way in, once he can get inside he dishes out a lot of punishment. He usually gets inside by tripling the jab and rushing in behind it but he kind of jabs like Marciano. He is taking too many soild shots at a distance, particularly if a good fighter takes a small step back and plants his feet to throw. He takes a good shot but his mother is going to kill me if he doesn't fight a little more strategically. I would say he fights the most like quarry did. He has a solid left hook.

I am trying to get him to incorporate feints, also to slip inside against conventional fighters when they jab, he is also working the drop switch to attack from the outside of the jab. I am looking for suggestions to get inside understanding that he is shorter than a lot of guys he fights.

I may not be the best guy to help but I have some questions that might lead to something or help one of us to give some ideas:

5'10" -- what is his reach? (I am 5'10", about his weight, and get inside but I have 6'4" reach) -- a light heavyweight with a 5'10" (or less) reach is in a whole different boat.

"does not have a great jab" -- What's wrong with his jab, or better why isn't he training this to be a GOOD jab etc?

"gets inside by tripling the jab and rushing in behind it" -- How's his movement laterally? Head movement, fades, and slips? (Why rush in directly? -- train some more options)

"taking too many soild shots at a distance" -- How are his parries? (This was a game changer for me when I learn to parry close into my face...moved me from a 'rusher' to a counter-puncher -- actually it didn't 'move me', but rather gave me more options.... It was so dramatic a change that it almost felt like cheating.)

"understanding that he is shorter than a lot of guys he fights" -- for me it is more about reach than height, as I most like being shorter and punching UP (using the floor and my legs but assuming his reach is modest in keeping with his height, does he need to be that heavy? Also, watch some of Mike Tyson's earlier fights (BEFORE Buster Douglas AND before Mike went nuts). He was a smaller HEAVYWEIGHT getting in behind a very good jab, and fantastic body and head movement -- the jab and good movement all but disappeared the night he lost to Buster.)

No mention of the coach -- Where's his coach in all this? Maybe he needs to changes something or maybe he needs a new coach (or some additional coaching if you are serving that role yourself.

It almost seems like a coaching or attitude problem (if he isn't listening to his coach) perhaps is a big part of the issue.

Drills where he is light sparring or shadow sparring and NOT ALLOWED to move in, might help. Setting a limitation where he must move to the side to go in, or where he must just parry and counter-punch, or even repeating/returning to PURE PARRY drills to get that perfected (Really, this can be like MAGIC to a fighter who is accustomed and able to get hit -- he no longer gets hit near as much so he can use that ability much more strategically to get around tough problems opponents offer.) I too am VERY willing to get hit, but with these types of changes it almost quit happening.

Fix the jab. No excuses. In fact fix the jab SEVERAL ways. he should have a variety of jabs. Power jabs, ranging jabs etc.

Also, I believe there is a very cute trick that taught me a lot on Fran's MyBoxingCoach.com for getting in behind a jab, the "Blinding Jab". Personally, I generalized the exact technique Fran shows to give me a variety of stuff built on this same principle but your son might see Fran's very simple and clear tutorial and "get the idea" of how a jab can get him inside not just safely, but provide him with a more dominant position there inside as well.

The idea is that you put a jab in front of the opponent's eyes -- doesn't always matter if you hit him or not, just that you make him believe it AND COVER his eyes briefly -- while stepping in TO THE SIDE and throwing the power shot as the jab uncovers. It looks to the opponent sort of like you teleported inside and off to the left. He sees you in front, then your "over there and in close" as the power hand hits.

He can then work to generalize this idea to stuff like one jab up top, one power up there or to the body, then after the body shots (a jab/power, or just a power) take the jab back up top and use the "blinding jab" principle to move over and in for the REAL power shot. (So it's like a 5-6 punch combo, most of it is just distractionand setup unless you get them to score well and if they do score that it just EXTRA cool)

The opponent is dealing with a flurry top and bottom and then you are moving sideways WHILE HE CAN'T SEE just as he gets either used to what you are doing, or as he decides to counter, you have changed the strategy and positions.

Ultimately, if he is shorter (especially with less reach) he MUST get out from the front of the other fighter.

With my long arms guys get out there and STAND STILL in "my pocket" where i can hit them and they can't hit me -- it's probably acerbated by the misconception from my not being very tall. They are accustomed to doing that with other fighters my size and don't take the arms into consideration, but the key it to MOVE MOVE MOVE, laterally, up and down, any way except right into the other guys power from the front.

--
Herb

Herb makes some very good points there. A certain Mike Tyson used to out-jab guys much bigger than him. Hell he even out-jabbed Larry Holmes, the Heavyweight who many believe had one of the greatest jabs in the history of the game. Herb also refers to feinting and parrying. Getting these 2 techniques working in tandem is a must to overcome the tall guys. Two vids that may help:

Feinting in boxing

Blocking a jab

You may also like to think about effective slipping combined with a short, explosive foot movement toward the opponent after the feint.

Hope this helps. If anything is unclear, I'll try to answer any questions back here.

Cheers

Fran

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. (I have watched vids on my boxing coach.)

His reach is about 72", so moderate. He will drop down to 168 to compete but he has to take on the same fighters at the gym. I agree with what Herb said about coaching, our coach is 6'2" and has a bit of trouble seeing patterns for shorter fighters but we have a new coach that is short and was a great body puncher. He is anxious to work with Jake and that should help.

I think your right about rebuilding the jab, the feints and slips, particularly getting away from the linear fighting.

The sparring drill with light sparring without moving in, working feints and parries, jabs, lateral movement is a great suggestion. The problem with a pressure fighter sparring is he brings out the competitive fire in more experienced fighters, nobody likes getting pressured and pounded to the body, they start throwing with bad intention and you usually end up with a lot of intensity and sticking to your bread and butter rather than trying things you are working on. That being said, if you can trade when the heat is on, that's a problem lots of fighters would like to have.

Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

...Mike Tyson used to out-jab guys much bigger
...feinting and parrying. Getting these 2 techniques working in tandem is a must...

Feinting in boxing

Blocking a jab

...think about effective slipping combined with a short, explosive foot movement toward the opponent...
...
Fran

Those are great video tutorials Fran (all Fran stuff is worth watching multiple times), and I am going to spend more time with them myself, as well as with the supplementary links he offers there.

Fran, isn't the "Blinding Jab" one of your tutorials as well?

Pay special attention to anything Fran offers, as he is a real boxer and real boxing coach with a LOT of experience helping people improve and compete.

With my posts, consider them as unverified rumor until you prove them out for yourself -- I am actually a new boxer and while I have accumulated a lot of knowledge in a short time, there may be really large gaps or things that I have overlooked.

(No modesty, I am proud of what I do know but this is just the simple truth.)

If they help, excellent. If not, just move on to the next thing....

Originally Posted by Gocougars3

...His reach is about 72".
...our coach is 6'2" and has a bit of trouble seeing patterns
...but we have a new coach that is ... anxious to work with Jake

...rebuilding the jab, the feints and slips, particularly getting away from the linear fighting.

The sparring drill with light sparring without moving in, working feints and parries, jabs, lateral movement is a great suggestion. The problem with a pressure fighter sparring is he brings out the competitive fire in more experienced fighters, nobody likes getting pressured and pounded to the body, they start throwing with bad intention and you usually end up with a lot of intensity and sticking to your bread and butter rather than trying things you are working on. That being said, if you can trade when the heat is on, that's a problem lots of fighters would like to have.

Reach is fine - at least it isn't a DEFICIT (normal to a good for his height) so he isn't trying to overcome an extra limitation.

Sounds like the coaching situation will be improving (taking advantage of the strengths of both coaches is good if that is possible.)

It is really ESSENTIAL that Jake get some GOOD light sparring (or shadow sparring) partners -- going light enough that NO ONE is getting ego driven and no one is getting "hit" much (no more than just keeping each other honest at most). This isn't really even "sparring" as such, but practice with a LITTLE bit of contact fo realism and to avoid training unrealistic stuff.

The idea is that he will force himself to GIVE UP what works for him a bit to improve in areas where he is not as strong.

One 'rule' coach gave me that worked wonders: I was NOT allowed to move forward -- for a pressure fighter like me it felt so weird at first. Also, I was only allowing myself to take ONE (at most 2) steps to the red and to HOLD the center of the ring WITHOUT the ability to move forward.

Of course this meant that I was of necessity moving laterally and diagonally all of the time and improving every time I did this.

It is very important for Jake to understand a couple of key points about training:

Train your weaknesses and fight your strengths.

Pretty obvious to so many fighters (or other sport participants) only keep doing what they are already good at doing. It's more fun. It 'feels' better.

And when I say "Fight" here, I mostly mean in ACTUAL competition. Even heavier sparring should always have elements of this idea, except perhaps as fight time gets near and your trying to integrate the new skills with the already successful skills.

Remember that sparring SHOULD be LEARNING (not fighting) and a time for BUILDING new skills.
Most of the drills we are "good" at doing are NOT the ones we need, and most of the drills we don't enjoy are the ones we really need to do even more.

Perfecting Practice makes perfect....

Read the books, The Talent Code and/or Bounce:... -- have Jake read them as well if he wants to be great. These books will really explain the KIND of DEEP PRACTICE that will BUILD TALENT.

We now know that talent is not born, but rather is CREATED by proper training and practice.

This is true of Mike Tyson and Michael Jordan; its true of Tiger Woods and Mozart. It was true of the great chess players and most everybody else who was ever considered to be 'exceptionally talented', a 'gift genius', or a 'child prodigy' in any sport or activity.

Do NOT praise an athlete or other performer (or even a child) for being gifted, talented, or smart -- instead give praise that relates their skills and successes to the WORK they are putting into the activity and the efforts they make to expand their capabilities.

This one simple change may be the MOST IMPORTANT coaching or parenting tip for making a small -- even trivial -- change and getting amazing results and return for the effort.

'Sales Pitch': If you were offered explicit methods that allow you to build talent and create master level performance in anyone willing to practice, would you be interested in learning to do that?

"The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How"
by Daniel Coyle, (Probably the best book to read first)
Amazon.com: The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How. (9780553806847): Daniel Coyle: Books

"Bounce: Mozart, Federer, Picasso, Beckham, and the Science of Success"
by Matthew Syed, (...BUT this one is a good read too, and they both have things the other book lacks -- and Syed himself is a product of such training)
Amazon.com: Bounce: Mozart, Federer, Picasso, Beckham, and the Science of Success (9780061723759): Matthew Syed: Books

"Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else"
by Geoffrey Colvin (The FIRST popularization that publicized this scientific research about 2007 -- and it has good stuff too)
Amazon.com: Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else: Geoff Colvin: Books

"The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You've Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ Is Wrong"
by David Schenk (More focused on things like intelligence but it's the MOST RECENT book although with the least "how to" material)
Amazon.com: The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You've Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ Is Wrong (9780385523653): David Shenk: Books

"Mindset: The New Psychology of Success" by Carol Dweck (more focused on the proper attitude and coaching methods to achieve those attitudes -- very important stuff)

Also: "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin. Amazon.com: The Art of Learning: An Inner Journey to Optimal Performance (9780743277464): Josh Waitzkin: Books

YouTube - squarering44's Channel Working the Line

The blinding jab wasn't one of mine. In fact, I'd never come across it before I got involved in the Forums. I do have a version of what I believe is referred to as the 'up jab'. To me it's a long range left uppercut, but there you go.

Back to the 'blinding jab', I think it's where the jab is used almost to goad a response where it's popped out really quite slowly; Roberto Duran used to use this type of jab to great effect. I believe another version is where the lead arm stays out,almost 'holding' the opponent at arms length. Hearns used to do this a lot, but usually against shorter opponents or guys he knew he had the beating of. He never did this against Hagler, I guess because Marvin may have torn off his arm and beat him to death with it!

I'd coach the first version but not the second (in the amateur game, the ref would issue a warning.) I notice Scrap has joined the thread. It'd be interesting to know whether the second one is one of the little tricks that a pro trainer would coach or whether it's a personal thing to the boxer (more likely I guess.)

By the way, thanks Herb....again.

Sorry for wrongly attributing the "blinding jab" to Fran -- don't remember where I saw it then, but the video was similar to what Fran produces so that was what contributed to my confusion.

The blinding jab was just a regular jab that was aimed at the eyes -- it covers any concurrent movement if the step is started shortly before contact or full extension (if the punch is too short to actually hit).

It blinds by blocking vision.

I also agree with Fran, it should NOT be thrown slow, nor "left out" there -- you must practice the movement to begin just as it blocks the eyes and to be complete by the time it uncovers them.

I have played with fine timing though, slowing it JUST A LITTLE near extension to gain a little more time.

That seems ok, depending on your opponent's reaction speed -- don't want someone to rip it off and hit you with it , nor to push it down and change your balance or get past your guard.

This last is very hard to perfect, i.e., a single punch that goes FAST-SLOW-FAST. If I do this I make no real attempt to "hit" the opponent, just to get it near his face and block his vision.

Never do I leave it "out there" even if I slow it a bit near the turn around point.

Worked the perimeter today, feints, slips, parries and counters. He didn't buy it at first but I have been working hard on selling my feints and snapping the jab for the last couple of months (he has been away at college) and after I fooled him a few times and flicked him with the jab, he started to believe it. We also worked the line like scrap's video (sometimes working perpendicular to it instead of just down the line)

I might be a good partner on the light stuff for him, we used to work but when he started competing and i started getting closer to 50 we stopped mixing. He commented when we were done something like Herb said, deception being a whole side of boxing he never has given much thought to, i'll keep you posted.

Sounds like you were both having some fun. I envy you. No boys and my grils are both grown and away from home.

I am 58 and would love to have my "own light heavy".

And you guys can definitely do some LIGHT, shadow sparring where you just try to touch or come close without real (nor heavy) contact. Maybe a little more down to the body to keep each other honest.

I call them 'taps' when you hit just enough to know what is happening.

Then he can work on improving and trying new things without worrying about getting blasted for a mistake -- and the old man won't get blasted for, well, being old.

Originally Posted by HerbM

Sorry for wrongly attributing the "blinding jab" to Fran -- don't remember where I saw it then, but the video was similar to what Fran produces so that was what contributed to my confusion.

Hi Herb, that's Derek Roche that you're thinking of. I shared the video in the "Training Videos" thread.

Anyway, I'm very busy now (I'm in Shanghai). I just wanted to clear up the confusion.

Regards