Thread: The truth and facts about The career of Muhammad Ali

This is an analysis which goes opponent by opponent over the lesser known facts in the professional career of the self called "The Greatest" :

Tunney Hunsaker , 1st opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Olympic champion Ali jabbed his way to a six round shutout in his professional debut against small town police chief Tunney Hunsaker, whose eyes were nearly swollen shut by the end of this bout. Although Hunsaker was never inducted into the Pro Boxing Hall of Fame, he was later inducted into the Law Enforcement Hall of Fame.

Tony Esperti , 3rd opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Esperti was on his feet and seemingly not too hurt when referee Mike Kaplan stopped it because Esperti "was beginning to bust up around the eyes." (Miami News)

Jimmy Robinson , 4th opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Robinson was a last minute substitute for Willie Gulatt, who failed to appear.


Sonny Banks , 1962 :
quote from boxrec :
"~ Clay was knocked down in the 1st round, Banks was knocked down in the 2nd. ~"

Billy Daniels , 1962 :
Daniels got cut in the second round which eventually stopped the fight.

Archie Moore , 1962 :
Archie Wright was 46 years old by the time they fought , it's less relevant than James Toney stopping Holyfield come 2003 , Lewis KOing Tyson come 2002 or better , Tyson's stoppage losses to Kevin McBride & Danny Williams . This is how credible "The Greatest"'s wins over The "Old Mongoose" is . Clay did not do what Charles , Marchegiano and Patterson could not do before him .

Doug Jones , 1963 :
I watched this fight at least 3 times , the first time was on T.V. , and I thought to myself , who is winning the fight , is this the Muhammad Ali everyone regards as the best heavyweight (sometimes fighter) of all time ?
Jones had Ali hurt early in the fight , and chased him from the beginning until the last bell , Ali never hurt Jones as much .

Henry Cooper , 1963 & 1966 :
1) Angelo Dundee , Ali's (then Clay's) trainer cut his glove vs cooper in their first fight in order to buy Ali recovery time after Cooper knocked him down .
2) Cooper's chin was proven as "below granite" , prior and since their first fight , yet it was not why Ali is listed as the winner against him .
3) Yet ali went down and received smelling salts
4) after dundee cut his glove and ali got his smelling salts and glove replaced - Ali won due 2 cuts , against a proven bleeder
5) Is there anything else I need to know or did not mention about the Cooper fights ?
possibly .
At 1966 the story was :
A bad cut over Cooper's left eye forced stoppage.

Sonny Liston , 1964 & 1965 :
Liston's true age is one of the enigmas surrounding these fights .
In their first fight Ali cut Liston like he did with most of his opponents , and fled away from danger like he almost always did .
A dive is sometimes mentioned as one of the explanations to the outcome of their second fight .

Floyd Patterson , 1965 & 1972 :
Floyd had a crippled back in their first fight and was 37 years old in the second .

George Chuvalo , 1966 & 1972 :
Ali was hospitalized after their first fight and peed blood .

Ernie Terrell , 1967 :
Ali thumbed Terrell , but failed to stop him nonetheless .

Jerry Quarry , 1970 & 1972 :
Ali won twice due to cuts over another undersized proven cutter/bleeder .

Ken Norton , 1973 (* 2) , 1976 :
Some say Norton deserved the verdicts all 3 times .


George Foreman , 1974 :
I will post a thread dedicated for this fight only in d future
4d moment being , enjoy and learn from this good article :
Conspiracy Theory: Was The Rumble in the Jungle Fixed? | Ringside Report

Jimmy Young , 1976 :
I once read that : " Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons "

Earnie Shavers , 1977 :
Yet another disputed verdict by the judges

////
In my opinion , I believe that immediate rematches with Jones , Cooper , Chuvalo , Terrell , Foreman , Young , Shavers and a 4th match with Norton were much more needed than fighting the likes of Brian London , Karl Mildenberger , Jean Pierre Coopman , Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista .
Yet he found the time to fight Joe Bugner twice , Alvin Lewis , old and worn Zora Folley and old and literally shot Cleveland Williams , etc .

////
There is more to be told about Ali's style of fouling , which some insist to consider as boxing .
Things like holding and hitting behind the head .

Factoid : did you know that Ali received testosterone injections ? like in steroids . But you only see people people call Toney a roider .
///
U can dismiss this as suspicion / conspiracy theory but whenever a man cuts & swells so many men so often and enough 2 stop them that man is a suspect 4 loading his gloves .
Loading might also b d reason 2 Y Ali's glove was cut vs Henry Cooper in their 1st fight , but i suspect it was Angelo Mirena ("Dundee") in order 2 buy him time .
D full uncut unedited version of Cooper #1 is mysteriously lost and unavailable . What u c in youtube is d edited and cut version in which u don't c d duration of d extended break between rds which Mirena caused by cutting Ali's glove at some stage .
In regards 2 it , i believe that this was d reason 2y Ali told him in Manilla in 1975 2 "cut d glove" . Ali never wanted 2 quit in a fight , he just wanted 2 cheat 2 buy him recovery time like in Cooper #1 .
After Ali was announced as d victor in Manilla after Frazier could not come out of his corner due 2 swelling around his eyes (and being blind in 1 of them anyway) Ali collapsed and was rendered unconscious without even being punched again . He knew Y he wanted 2 cheat , what Mirena ("Dundee") helped him at and did 4 him his whole career .

//
This is your "The Greatest"'s story .
//
Enjoy .

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

Of the 61 fights that Clay/Ali fought 29 wouldn't be allowed nowadays as heavyweight because one or both opponents were below 200 lbs at the time of the bout. In other words they would run as cruiser fights (or below) and Klitschko wouldn't be allowed to stage them.

Of the remaining 32 fights Ali lost 4.

Of the remaining 28 fights Ali fought 10 x against opponents LIGHTER than Eddie Chambers (Wladimir Klitschko's lightest opponent), thus today's fans would shout "they should move down to cruiserweight" and "it's proof of how the division sucks" or what a mismatch it is.

Of the remaining 18 fights 2 wouldn't be allowed for medical reasons: Joe Frazier was blind on his left eye and Cleveland Williams was badly gunshot a few months prior! Another proof of the "dire state of the division"

Of the remaining 16 fights Ali couldn't KO his opponents in 10 fights (within 12 rounds) thus they would be "proof of how featherfisty Wlad is with a KO'ratio of 38%" and that "Marciano would KO this bum Wlad in 1 round"

Of the remaining 6 fights 1 was a bum: Charley Powell (25-11) which would be another proof for the "worst era in heavyweight boxing"

Of the remaining 5 fights 2 were against guys coming off a loss (Ron Lyle, Alvin Lewis) and fans would accuse Wlad of "cherry-picking".

Of the remaining 3 fights 2 were against a cruiser-bum beater (Sonny Liston) and fans would speculate about how the mob or Wladimir's radical Muslim friends have illegally influenced the outcome, since both endings (shoulder injury, phantom punch) were highly suspicious. Fans would complain that Sonny Liston didn't come to fight since he chickened out as soon as he saw fit.

The remaining 1 fight was against an opponent who gassed in the heat and sultriness of the rain season in the rain forest (George Foreman) and fans would shout "Lame, nowadays heavies cannot go 15 rounds anymore like Joe Louis".

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

Yeah... Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era and a 60-70s heavyweight is obviously smaller than a 2010 one? Point?

Originally Posted by AdamGB

Yeah... Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era and a 60-70s heavyweight is obviously smaller than a 2010 one? Point?

i know lol, shit HW's were a good 10 lbs lighter in Marciano's time than Ali's

Originally Posted by AdamGB

Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era, Point?

That was my point.

It wasn't really a dig, more a factual analysis with a sarcastic twist. Im an ali fan but unlike many casual fans i have a true sense of perspective on the man.

Other titbit's:

-Leon spinks was 6-0 as a pro when he fought ali for the title! Imagine if that happened now!!

-Cleveland Williams had been inactive the entire year of 1965 while recovering from gunshot wounds he suffered at the hands of a police officer arising out of a traffic stop. Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result. Can u imagine that now

-Frazier was blind in one eye his entire career too, he would not pass the medical today!!

-Listons true birthdate is unknown, most think he was late 30's at least when he fought ali!

-Fighting a 47 year old archie moore at 20 yrs old was just ridiculous! Sorry but come on....

On the upside though he still is a legend and was an exceptional talent and inspiration.

Originally Posted by AdamGB

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

I edited my opening post of d thread since then .
I hoped d conclusions will b obvious , but since many ppl unfamiliar enough with d sport or just plain stupid and shallow minded , i decided 2b nice , pedagogically correct and deduced d conclusions 4 u .
Now u can read more about d connection between all of these stories and excuses .
There is a reason and cause 4 everything . 1 does not cut & swell so many so often just in case .
Remember Margachito vs Cotto ? remember Cotto's face later ?
Remember Billy Collins Jr.'s face after his fight with Luis Resto ?
still don't get it ?
i once saw some1 accusing Marchegiano at loading his gloves . Don't know if it's true . But I don't rule it out , and neither do d pics of Ezzard Charles' face after their 1st fight .
Everything must b a coincidence , doesn't it ?

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

What a low level of reply . It's just u , isn't it ? repeating what u were told since u were a child .
Never applying thought , never trying 2 find d common cause / reason 4 things . Just posting shit like u always do .
Which odds exactly did Ali or Louis overcome ?
Liston took a dive against Ali in both of their fights , their 1st was such a scandalous quit that it was hard 2 sell d 2nd 2d public . Their 2nd yet even worse .
Ali , Mirena and Don King cheated huge time vs Foreman in Zaire in 1974 . U can read about it in d article i posted a link 2 in d 1st post of d thread .
I will post another thread in d future about "D Rumble In D Jungle" in Zaire in 1974 .

Both Ali and Louis enjoyed size advantage over d vast majority of their opponents .
But this thread is not about Jose Louis Barrow nor about Jose Luis Ramirez , so leave them out because i will not get dragged by u in2 a complete gutter level argument like u did in d other thread .

He is on a Windup.. You can talk to a Man with a Wooden Leg, not a Man with a Wooden Head.

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

Originally Posted by AdamGB

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

I edited my opening post of d thread since then .
I hoped d conclusions will b obvious , but since many ppl unfamiliar enough with d sport or just plain stupid and shallow minded , i decided 2b nice , pedagogically correct and deduced d conclusions 4 u .
Now u can read more about d connection between all of these stories and excuses .
There is a reason and cause 4 everything . 1 does not cut & swell so many so often just in case .
Remember Margachito vs Cotto ? remember Cotto's face later ?
Remember Billy Collins Jr.'s face after his fight with Luis Resto ?
still don't get it ?
i once saw some1 accusing Marchegiano at loading his gloves . Don't know if it's true . But I don't rule it out , and neither do d pics of Ezzard Charles' face after their 1st fight .
Everything must b a coincidence , doesn't it ?

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

What a low level of reply . It's just u , isn't it ? repeating what u were told since u were a child .
Never applying thought , never trying 2 find d common cause / reason 4 things . Just posting shit like u always do .
Which odds exactly did Ali or Louis overcome ?
Liston took a dive against Ali in both of their fights , their 1st was such a scandalous quit that it was hard 2 sell d 2nd 2d public . Their 2nd yet even worse .
Ali , Mirena and Don King cheated huge time vs Foreman in Zaire in 1974 . U can read about it in d article i posted a link 2 in d 1st post of d thread .
I will post another thread in d future about "D Rumble In D Jungle" in Zaire in 1974 .

Both Ali and Louis enjoyed size advantage over d vast majority of their opponents .
But this thread is not about Jose Louis Barrow nor about Jose Luis Ramirez , so leave them out because i will not get dragged by u in2 a complete gutter level argument like u did in d other thread .

lol yea cause you completely ignore the mere fact that it was Liston who had the mob connections, and was the one who tried to allegedly cheat in the first fight, Ali was the underdog going into the fight, you ignore the FACT that Ali once again was the underdog going in against the younger, much larger George Foreman going into their bout, you ignore that Ali was out for what? 3 yrs due to evading the draft, and that Louis gave up most of his prime due to serving in the military, yet both went on not only to face the best but beat the vast majority, see you make up your theories and your little conspiracies and ignore REAL FACTS, you try to discredit GREAT fighter's accomplishments putting up fake weak excuses yet you try to build up fighters that were a little bit above mediocre at a world stage like Ramirez, like I said in another thread you ramble on about fake stats yet fail to see true greatness cause you have zero knowledge in the art that is BOXING, probably have never stepped into a boxing ring nor have any grasp on the fundamentals of the sport, you're clueless bud, and that's why you're considered as a joke on here

Ali lost to Spinks who had had only 6 fights

Ali must have been crap. Fact

Originally Posted by Mark TKO

Ali lost to Spinks who had had only 6 fights

Ali must have been crap. Fact

yea that's his logic, fully ignoring the fact that Leon was an Olympic gold medalist, younger, and Ali was unmotivated, on the slide and already beginning to show signs of Parkinson's, and given all those factors still beat Spinks in the rematch

I think Ali needs to be looked at as a boxer which is oddly enough the last thing people look at. To many Ali is "The Greatest" why? Because he talked himself up and billed himself as "The Greatest" certainly he was a great heavyweight, but don't get the blinders on. Sure Ali lost time to protesting the Vietnam War, but Joe Louis served his country & lost years of his prime as well, he also defended his title better as well. Those are just a few of the reasons why Joe Louis is actually The Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Ali is still up there as is Marciano.

Thing is, everyone has tough fights, but it seems to me a lot of people rate Ali based on his cult of personality status rather than what he did in the ring and anyone who says something against that will be berated for their insolence.

Originally Posted by El Kabong

I think Ali needs to be looked at as a boxer which is oddly enough the last thing people look at. To many Ali is "The Greatest" why? Because he talked himself up and billed himself as "The Greatest" certainly he was a great heavyweight, but don't get the blinders on. Sure Ali lost time to protesting the Vietnam War, but Joe Louis served his country & lost years of his prime as well, he also defended his title better as well. Those are just a few of the reasons why Joe Louis is actually The Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Ali is still up there as is Marciano.

Thing is, everyone has tough fights, but it seems to me a lot of people rate Ali based on his cult of personality status rather than what he did in the ring and anyone who says something against that will be berated for their insolence.

see you at least point out certain valid points, but you don't try to discredit every single accomplishment Ali has on his record, that's why I stated that when it comes to greatest HW it's basically between Louis and Ali, IMO Marciano doesn't even come close, Ali's resume is awesome, but Louis dominated like no other, so you could make a valid claim for either guy

You like picking apart boxers careers don't you, Frankenfrank? I guess you could do this to every great fighter that has ever been and gone. Same as your post about the fab 4..Must be quite hard to enjoy boxing if you're constantly looking to discredit every fighters wins/losses/fights?

Although, if you are making any more of these posts, you wouldn't mind doing a break down of Joe Calzaghe would you? good lad!

(I'm joking btw JC fanclub..)