Thread: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....

Joe Frazier is smaller than Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers in all aspect's. His average prime weight was 205lbs, he had a reach of 73″ and was barely 5'11"! At 215lbs he looked badly out of shape:



Even the 216lb, former CW Jean Marc Mormeck wore the weight well:



How would he fare against the Klitschko's? Disregard (for now) the fact that he would be unable to fight today on medical grounds due to being blind in his left eye throughout his entire career and give me your thoughts on a Klitschko vs. Frazier showdown!

I know size is not neccessarily an indicator of outcome but with margin's like that they have to factor in surely! Especially considering Joe unlike i.e 215lb Chris Byrd wasn't the slickest or most agile of fighters!

Personally i think George Foreman put Frazier there where he objectively belongs. When Joe Frazier met the only heavyweight comparable to Klitschko i.e Foreman (And even then foreman is a much smaller HW than wlad!) he was violently schooled!

His reputation as a puncher and for punch-resistance is based on fighting cruiserweights and he would be a very good cruiserweight if he was around today. However, it's not merely the fact that he lost to George Foreman that is significant but the margin and manner of the defeat. Thanks to his incompetent cornermen and the equally useless referee, Joe Frazier was lucky to leave Jamaica alive in 1973. Given his slow starting and the regularity with which he took punches, he'd be in desperate trouble against any decent sized, big punching genuine heavyweight of today (See Bonavena and Bugner fights! Not a good sign...)

I am a frazier fan and he will be missed, He had the heart to keep fighting and never give up no matter what but in truth Klitschko vs. Ali's arch nemesis would be a missmatch..

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Joe Frazier is smaller than Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers in all aspect's. His average prime weight was 205lbs, he had a reach of 73″ and was barely 5'11"! At 215lbs he looked badly out of shape:



Even the 216lb, former CW Jean Marc Mormeck wore the weight well:



How would he fare against the Klitschko's? Disregard (for now) the fact that he would be unable to fight today on medical grounds due to being blind in his left eye throughout his entire career and give me your thoughts on a Klitschko vs. Frazier showdown!

I know size is not neccessarily an indicator of outcome but with margin's like that they have to factor in surely! Especially considering Joe unlike i.e 215lb Chris Byrd wasn't the slickest or most agile of fighters!

Personally i think George Foreman put Frazier there where he objectively belongs. When Joe Frazier met the only heavyweight comparable to Klitschko i.e Foreman (And even then foreman is a much smaller HW than wlad!) he was violently schooled!

His reputation as a puncher and for punch-resistance is based on fighting cruiserweights and he would be a very good cruiserweight if he was around today. However, it's not merely the fact that he lost to George Foreman that is significant but the margin and manner of the defeat. Thanks to his incompetent cornermen and the equally useless referee, Joe Frazier was lucky to leave Jamaica alive in 1973. Given his slow starting and the regularity with which he took punches, he'd be in desperate trouble against any decent sized, big punching genuine heavyweight of today (See Bonavena and Bugner fights! Not a good sign...)

Has ever faced! That is very telling...I am a frazier fan and he will be missed, He had the heart to keep fighting and never give up no matter what but in truth Klitschko vs. Ali's arch nemesis would be a missmatch..

Hey! If you want a discussion you have to leave something for the other person to say. You just killed this thread with your opening post. All I can say is I agree.

The difference between a similiar size Byrd and Chambers is they might as well have been throwing hamsters at Wlad compared to Frazier. Likewise Foremans mentality vs Frazier, regardless of hearing him always say "my knees were shaking" bit...was hell bent on destroying Joe and fought zero and nothing like Wlad in first career.

Style wise Wlad has all the tools to keep Frazier on a stick for win but I wonder if he would be content there and let a forever tenacious and coiled dynamite Frazier linger and avoid Fraziers danger zone. To me Wlad would have to get him out and punch much more off jab. 205 or 502 I don't doubt for a minute Frazier could hurt Wlad but I say Wlad beats him.

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

Mate seriously....come on!

George Foreman was INDEED one of the hardest punchers and his KO abilities are very good. He probably is a harder puncher in a 'P4P' sense....but to suggest he is more powerful than either 245lb brother is just silly! Prime foreman was considered the SHW of his day! Today he would an be average sized HW no bigger tha haye or adamek!

His power looked more impressive because he was fighting mainly smaller men....i mean he couldn't even KO china chinned morrison! Foreman and Wlad had 3 common opponents: Schulz, Martin and Young:

Opponent-Wladimir Klitschko's result-George Foreman's result:

·Axel Schulz KO8 MD12 (Robbery)
·Everett Martin KO8 UD10
·Mark Young KO2 (RTD2) TKO7

This shows a clear power superiority of Wladimir. This was the comeback foreman of course but his power had not diminishished.

Adittionally note that 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs) would be Wladimir Klitschko's bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent EVER and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent!

Probably the easiest way to convince good-old-time nostalgists of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights 200×2, whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

Thankyou.

Athletes in boxing today are vastly superior to the old timers in most cases:





Yes they sometimes may not be as entertaining as the 'good old days' and less willing to risk there health etc but then again it is 2012. Boxers are more scientific nowadays, the training and nutrition has moved on, but yes u can't fault the old timers for heart and guts!

What next, a "Floyd Patterson vs. Wlad" thread?

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

All empiric evidence shows that especially Wlad has a much harder one punch power than Big George - but of course Foreman is from a past time and therefore better.... - everything has developed since the 60s except boxing.... :-D

Wlad vs. JF would be a mismatch as most matches with today's HWs vs. yesterdays HWs. In 30-40 years people will also claim that if their present HWs fought the K2 then they would lose. Of course K2 would not be able to compete with future HW greats. One could be great in his own era but one would also be non-competitive going 4-5 sports generations forward. Better nutrition, genetic, tactics, training regimes etc. etc. - the evolution race will never stop even though many posters think that boxing is static.

Originally Posted by Peter Plys 44

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

All empiric evidence shows that especially Wlad has a much harder one punch power than Big George - but of course Foreman is from a past time and therefore better.... - everything has developed since the 60s except boxing.... :-D

Wlad vs. JF would be a mismatch as most matches with today's HWs vs. yesterdays HWs. In 30-40 years people will also claim that if their present HWs fought the K2 then they would lose. Of course K2 would not be able to compete with future HW greats. One could be great in his own era but one would also be non-competitive going 4-5 sports generations forward. Better nutrition, genetic, tactics, training regimes etc. etc. - the evolution race will never stop even though many posters think that boxing is static.

to Philosopher, all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on, and sorry but most the guys that Wlad has beaten are roughly the same size as the guys that Foreman took on in his comeback and George more often than not had one punch KO victories over these guys while being fat out of shape and having a big age disadvantage, because back in the 80's and 90's the average age of real HW contenders wasn't mid 30's, just cause they have better physiques than the HW fighters of the past doesn't mean they possess better skills or overall better technique, if that was the case than Holyfield would take the cake cause IMO he still comes in more physically fit than men 20 yrs younger than him

all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on

I already stated that didn't i? On a more consistant basis wlad has fought much larger opponents! George's best win was former LHW moorer in a fight he was getting schooled, moorer barely beat average axel schultz managing only a SD, he was also kayoed in 1 by tua!

The cooney fight was an embarrasment that should never have happened it is basically the equivalent of tyson fighting bowe now!!
Imagine the shit this division would get if that happened! Foreman also struggled with a young-overly cautious shannon briggs so we can discount that version ruling todays era of hw's!

George # 2 was far more focused on lasting the 12 rounds which is the best way to train. He wasn't as wild, concentrated more on setting up his punches and not just charging and swing away. I do believe the George Foreman of 1973 vs. Frazier, would probably have beat George #2 but...

The later version was a better more patient boxer. The early George was a slugger who if he did not knock someone out in 3 or 4 rounds got extremely frustrated. He went the distance with Holyfield on April 19 1991 and actually had more left than Holyfield even at the 42. Early on he was a one dimensional puncher and a bully. The later version was better. Also his demeanor was much better the early George was a bitter angry man.

Power is the last thing to go in a fighters arsenal,foreman focused on this rather than any other aspect of his training in his comeback, watch the legendary nights documentary and it will show him carrying like a dead animal (a big animal like a bear or somethin not that big though on his shoulders), then he wears this thing on his chest with a cable that's connected to a car and he pulls it....He does lot of weights, and lots of wood chopping....

BY GEORGE (his auto):"I never ran more than 3 miles a day in my first career but in the begining of my comeback i was doing mini - marithons of 5 or more miles", (the cow picture WAS a stunt for people mag. but the 2 guys helping foreman hold the cow fell down and left george actually holding the animal!)

Boxing Illustrated 12/95:in the old days I never hit the heavybag less than 6 rounds a day but no more than 8
The Fight by Norman mailer: says that while watching him train in zaire foreman would brood around and shadowbox for 20 minutes or so, do about 10 minutes of calethenics, then spar for 4 rounds, heavy bag for 15 minutes,then the speed bag for a round, then finish with a short stint on the rope and leave...(this was only a week or so before the fight and i am guessing a light workout?)

FROM GEORGES OLD COLUMN IN USA WEEKEND:"when i fought Fraizer in 73 and took off my robe everyone said "how can i get a stomach like that george? and the truth is/was i never did more than 100 sit-ups a day, "I looked at a photo of myself from the second Fraizer fight and thought my chest looked great and i remembered dick sadler always had me do my push ups 3 sets of 10 one with my hands in close, one at shoulder width, and one just passed shoulder width"." I never lifted weights much as a young man".

If im totally honest i think frazier makes foreman look better than he actually was....Don't get me wrong of course he was a great fighter with a big punch but when younger foreman beat Frazier, joe was out of shape, he prepared for the first Foreman fight by touring with a funk band. Foreman was a nobody at this point and Frazier didn't take him seriously at all. If Mike Tyson or some other "fan favorite" lost under these circumstances Frazier's poor preperation would be talked about to death.

Fraizer II-fought smarter but physically totally shot after Manilla.

Anyway to finish, foreman himself admits the klitschko's are better than him!

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on

I already stated that didn't i? On a more consistant basis wlad has fought much larger opponents! George's best win was former LHW moorer in a fight he was getting schooled, moorer barely beat average axel schultz managing only a SD, he was also kayoed in 1 by tua!

The cooney fight was an embarrasment that should never have happened it is basically the equivalent of tyson fighting bowe now!!
Imagine the shit this division would get if that happened! Foreman also struggled with a young-overly cautious shannon briggs so we can discount that version ruling todays era of hw's!

George # 2 was far more focused on lasting the 12 rounds which is the best way to train. He wasn't as wild, concentrated more on setting up his punches and not just charging and swing away. I do believe the George Foreman of 1973 vs. Frazier, would probably have beat George #2 but...

The later version was a better more patient boxer. The early George was a slugger who if he did not knock someone out in 3 or 4 rounds got extremely frustrated. He went the distance with Holyfield on April 19 1991 and actually had more left than Holyfield even at the 42. Early on he was a one dimensional puncher and a bully. The later version was better. Also his demeanor was much better the early George was a bitter angry man.

Power is the last thing to go in a fighters arsenal,foreman focused on this rather than any other aspect of his training in his comeback, watch the legendary nights documentary and it will show him carrying like a dead animal (a big animal like a bear or somethin not that big though on his shoulders), then he wears this thing on his chest with a cable that's connected to a car and he pulls it....He does lot of weights, and lots of wood chopping....

BY GEORGE (his auto):"I never ran more than 3 miles a day in my first career but in the begining of my comeback i was doing mini - marithons of 5 or more miles", (the cow picture WAS a stunt for people mag. but the 2 guys helping foreman hold the cow fell down and left george actually holding the animal!)

Boxing Illustrated 12/95:in the old days I never hit the heavybag less than 6 rounds a day but no more than 8
The Fight by Norman mailer: says that while watching him train in zaire foreman would brood around and shadowbox for 20 minutes or so, do about 10 minutes of calethenics, then spar for 4 rounds, heavy bag for 15 minutes,then the speed bag for a round, then finish with a short stint on the rope and leave...(this was only a week or so before the fight and i am guessing a light workout?)

FROM GEORGES OLD COLUMN IN USA WEEKEND:"when i fought Fraizer in 73 and took off my robe everyone said "how can i get a stomach like that george? and the truth is/was i never did more than 100 sit-ups a day, "I looked at a photo of myself from the second Fraizer fight and thought my chest looked great and i remembered dick sadler always had me do my push ups 3 sets of 10 one with my hands in close, one at shoulder width, and one just passed shoulder width"." I never lifted weights much as a young man".

If im totally honest i think frazier makes foreman look better than he actually was....Don't get me wrong of course he was a great fighter with a big punch but when younger foreman beat Frazier, joe was out of shape, he prepared for the first Foreman fight by touring with a funk band. Foreman was a nobody at this point and Frazier didn't take him seriously at all. If Mike Tyson or some other "fan favorite" lost under these circumstances Frazier's poor preperation would be talked about to death.

Fraizer II-fought smarter but physically totally shot after Manilla.

Anyway to finish, foreman himself admits the klitschko's are better than him!

again Foreman was way passed it and ancient when he fought Briggs and he still beat him only to be robbed, also a completely focused George never lost to anyone the likes of Puritty, Sanders (RIP) , or Brewster, which were shorter, half an inch taller, and shorter than Foreman, so Big George being smaller wouldn't have been an issue given he would have an inch reach advantage and the sledgehammer jab followed by his jackhammer right hand

I'm not trying to bash either Klitschko cause I'm one of the few that does give them their dues, but don't try and discredit a legend like Frazier or Foreman only to try and build them both (especially in this case Wlad) up when it's a straight up FACT that they are fighting in one of the worst eras that the HW division has seen, it's not their fault but it still is a factor to their dominance

Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

Mate seriously....come on!

George Foreman was INDEED one of the hardest punchers and his KO abilities are very good. He probably is a harder puncher in a 'P4P' sense....but to suggest he is more powerful than either 245lb brother is just silly! Prime foreman was considered the SHW of his day! Today he would an be average sized HW no bigger tha haye or adamek!

His power looked more impressive because he was fighting mainly smaller men....i mean he couldn't even KO china chinned morrison! Foreman and Wlad had 3 common
opponents: Schulz, Martin and Young:

Opponent-Wladimir Klitschko's result-George Foreman's result:

·Axel Schulz KO8 MD12 (Robbery)
·Everett Martin KO8 UD10
·Mark Young KO2 (RTD2) TKO7

This shows a clear power superiority of Wladimir. This was the comeback foreman of course but his power had not diminishished.

Adittionally note that 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs) would be Wladimir Klitschko's bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent EVER and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent!

Probably the easiest way to convince good-old-time nostalgists of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights 200×2, whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

Thankyou.

I don't know for the life of me how you draw any clean cut superiority in trumping up names like a Mark Young and Bigfoot Martin. Who hasn't knocked Young out bud? By that logic everyones favorite punching bag Mike acey flattened him before both so is he in the neighborhood of big hitters? Wlad is so superior he had to fight Martin not once but twice to get him out. Considering Wlad had had about three times as many title fights, (excluding the wbu and stepping stone trinkets for both) than Foreman so yeh, obviously it would seem he would have more
kos. That's just loaded.

Both have a somewhat methodical and calculated delivery with power. Foreman has had two careers with it and came back as a mentally superior fighter he was in his youth. Wlad has seemingly done it likewise, matured, without the ten year absence. Both worked off jab and varied in delivery. Wlad has literally won fights on a jab and seemed content to do it and could paw it. I think he could do even better if he would let the right come off of it far more but he is ever the calculator. Foremans jab was a telephone pole follow usually with a debilitating uppercut or that half chop half cross. Power is great and all but when you think power you think hurt with nearly every clean shot landed. Foreman had that.

Its pretty obvious he wants to ignore that fact that this is the weakest heavyweight era of all time thats why he never brings it up.

Hindsight is a great thing.
Jack johnson is another oldie that gets destroyed by todays heavyweights as he only fought 20-30 rds back then.

Nathan cleverly is another fighter in the best lhw divison of all time and he schools a pre clinton woods roy jones.

Anyway, i cant talk long im fighting in germany next week as im over 200lbs and 6foot im a legitimate contender to the klitskos.

Originally Posted by imp

Its pretty obvious he wants to ignore that fact that this is the weakest heavyweight era of all time thats why he never brings it up.

Hindsight is a great thing.
Jack johnson is another oldie that gets destroyed by todays heavyweights as he only fought 20-30 rds back then.

Nathan cleverly is another fighter in the best lhw divison of all time and he schools a pre clinton woods roy jones.

Anyway, i cant talk long im fighting in germany next week as im over 200lbs and 6foot im a legitimate contender to the klitskos.

Have they moved on to fighting retards then I guess that's what happens when you dominate a division so thoroughly.