Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....

[ElTerribleMorales]

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

Mate seriously....come on!

George Foreman was INDEED one of the hardest punchers and his KO abilities are very good. He probably is a harder puncher in a 'P4P' sense....but to suggest he is more powerful than either 245lb brother is just silly! Prime foreman was considered the SHW of his day! Today he would an be average sized HW no bigger tha haye or adamek!

His power looked more impressive because he was fighting mainly smaller men....i mean he couldn't even KO china chinned morrison! Foreman and Wlad had 3 common opponents: Schulz, Martin and Young:

Opponent-Wladimir Klitschko's result-George Foreman's result:

·Axel Schulz KO8 MD12 (Robbery)
·Everett Martin KO8 UD10
·Mark Young KO2 (RTD2) TKO7

This shows a clear power superiority of Wladimir. This was the comeback foreman of course but his power had not diminishished.

Adittionally note that 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs) would be Wladimir Klitschko's bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent EVER and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent!

Probably the easiest way to convince good-old-time nostalgists of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights 200×2, whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

Thankyou.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

Athletes in boxing today are vastly superior to the old timers in most cases:





Yes they sometimes may not be as entertaining as the 'good old days' and less willing to risk there health etc but then again it is 2012. Boxers are more scientific nowadays, the training and nutrition has moved on, but yes u can't fault the old timers for heart and guts!

[TitoFan]

What next, a "Floyd Patterson vs. Wlad" thread?

[Spicoli]

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

Mate seriously....come on!

George Foreman was INDEED one of the hardest punchers and his KO abilities are very good. He probably is a harder puncher in a 'P4P' sense....but to suggest he is more powerful than either 245lb brother is just silly! Prime foreman was considered the SHW of his day! Today he would an be average sized HW no bigger tha haye or adamek!

His power looked more impressive because he was fighting mainly smaller men....i mean he couldn't even KO china chinned morrison! Foreman and Wlad had 3 common
opponents: Schulz, Martin and Young:

Opponent-Wladimir Klitschko's result-George Foreman's result:

·Axel Schulz KO8 MD12 (Robbery)
·Everett Martin KO8 UD10
·Mark Young KO2 (RTD2) TKO7

This shows a clear power superiority of Wladimir. This was the comeback foreman of course but his power had not diminishished.

Adittionally note that 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.

Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs) would be Wladimir Klitschko's bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent EVER and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent!

Probably the easiest way to convince good-old-time nostalgists of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights 200×2, whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.

Thankyou.

I don't know for the life of me how you draw any clean cut superiority in trumping up names like a Mark Young and Bigfoot Martin. Who hasn't knocked Young out bud? By that logic everyones favorite punching bag Mike acey flattened him before both so is he in the neighborhood of big hitters? Wlad is so superior he had to fight Martin not once but twice to get him out. Considering Wlad had had about three times as many title fights, (excluding the wbu and stepping stone trinkets for both) than Foreman so yeh, obviously it would seem he would have more
kos. That's just loaded.

Both have a somewhat methodical and calculated delivery with power. Foreman has had two careers with it and came back as a mentally superior fighter he was in his youth. Wlad has seemingly done it likewise, matured, without the ten year absence. Both worked off jab and varied in delivery. Wlad has literally won fights on a jab and seemed content to do it and could paw it. I think he could do even better if he would let the right come off of it far more but he is ever the calculator. Foremans jab was a telephone pole follow usually with a debilitating uppercut or that half chop half cross. Power is great and all but when you think power you think hurt with nearly every clean shot landed. Foreman had that.

[Peter Plys 44]

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

All empiric evidence shows that especially Wlad has a much harder one punch power than Big George - but of course Foreman is from a past time and therefore better.... - everything has developed since the 60s except boxing.... :-D

Wlad vs. JF would be a mismatch as most matches with today's HWs vs. yesterdays HWs. In 30-40 years people will also claim that if their present HWs fought the K2 then they would lose. Of course K2 would not be able to compete with future HW greats. One could be great in his own era but one would also be non-competitive going 4-5 sports generations forward. Better nutrition, genetic, tactics, training regimes etc. etc. - the evolution race will never stop even though many posters think that boxing is static.

[ElTerribleMorales]

Probably the only fighter 'size wise' comparable to frazier is mormeck, And even then mormeck has a naturally bigger/more athletic frame than frazier had!

Chambers and byrd are slightly bigger men than frazier.

in Frazier's defense, neither Klitschko has the one punch power of Foreman

not saying they don't bang, but neither is as big of a puncher as Big George, also Frazier had more power than Mormeck, better head movement, stamina, and the tightest compact left hook in HW history, Wlad should be the favorite, but if Haye was given a chance by more than a few there is no way in hell that you would be able to count Joe Frazier out of pulling off the win

All empiric evidence shows that especially Wlad has a much harder one punch power than Big George - but of course Foreman is from a past time and therefore better.... - everything has developed since the 60s except boxing.... :-D

Wlad vs. JF would be a mismatch as most matches with today's HWs vs. yesterdays HWs. In 30-40 years people will also claim that if their present HWs fought the K2 then they would lose. Of course K2 would not be able to compete with future HW greats. One could be great in his own era but one would also be non-competitive going 4-5 sports generations forward. Better nutrition, genetic, tactics, training regimes etc. etc. - the evolution race will never stop even though many posters think that boxing is static.

to Philosopher, all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on, and sorry but most the guys that Wlad has beaten are roughly the same size as the guys that Foreman took on in his comeback and George more often than not had one punch KO victories over these guys while being fat out of shape and having a big age disadvantage, because back in the 80's and 90's the average age of real HW contenders wasn't mid 30's, just cause they have better physiques than the HW fighters of the past doesn't mean they possess better skills or overall better technique, if that was the case than Holyfield would take the cake cause IMO he still comes in more physically fit than men 20 yrs younger than him

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on

I already stated that didn't i? On a more consistant basis wlad has fought much larger opponents! George's best win was former LHW moorer in a fight he was getting schooled, moorer barely beat average axel schultz managing only a SD, he was also kayoed in 1 by tua!

The cooney fight was an embarrasment that should never have happened it is basically the equivalent of tyson fighting bowe now!!
Imagine the shit this division would get if that happened! Foreman also struggled with a young-overly cautious shannon briggs so we can discount that version ruling todays era of hw's!

George # 2 was far more focused on lasting the 12 rounds which is the best way to train. He wasn't as wild, concentrated more on setting up his punches and not just charging and swing away. I do believe the George Foreman of 1973 vs. Frazier, would probably have beat George #2 but...

The later version was a better more patient boxer. The early George was a slugger who if he did not knock someone out in 3 or 4 rounds got extremely frustrated. He went the distance with Holyfield on April 19 1991 and actually had more left than Holyfield even at the 42. Early on he was a one dimensional puncher and a bully. The later version was better. Also his demeanor was much better the early George was a bitter angry man.

Power is the last thing to go in a fighters arsenal,foreman focused on this rather than any other aspect of his training in his comeback, watch the legendary nights documentary and it will show him carrying like a dead animal (a big animal like a bear or somethin not that big though on his shoulders), then he wears this thing on his chest with a cable that's connected to a car and he pulls it....He does lot of weights, and lots of wood chopping....

BY GEORGE (his auto):"I never ran more than 3 miles a day in my first career but in the begining of my comeback i was doing mini - marithons of 5 or more miles", (the cow picture WAS a stunt for people mag. but the 2 guys helping foreman hold the cow fell down and left george actually holding the animal!)

Boxing Illustrated 12/95:in the old days I never hit the heavybag less than 6 rounds a day but no more than 8
The Fight by Norman mailer: says that while watching him train in zaire foreman would brood around and shadowbox for 20 minutes or so, do about 10 minutes of calethenics, then spar for 4 rounds, heavy bag for 15 minutes,then the speed bag for a round, then finish with a short stint on the rope and leave...(this was only a week or so before the fight and i am guessing a light workout?)

FROM GEORGES OLD COLUMN IN USA WEEKEND:"when i fought Fraizer in 73 and took off my robe everyone said "how can i get a stomach like that george? and the truth is/was i never did more than 100 sit-ups a day, "I looked at a photo of myself from the second Fraizer fight and thought my chest looked great and i remembered dick sadler always had me do my push ups 3 sets of 10 one with my hands in close, one at shoulder width, and one just passed shoulder width"." I never lifted weights much as a young man".

If im totally honest i think frazier makes foreman look better than he actually was....Don't get me wrong of course he was a great fighter with a big punch but when younger foreman beat Frazier, joe was out of shape, he prepared for the first Foreman fight by touring with a funk band. Foreman was a nobody at this point and Frazier didn't take him seriously at all. If Mike Tyson or some other "fan favorite" lost under these circumstances Frazier's poor preperation would be talked about to death.

Fraizer II-fought smarter but physically totally shot after Manilla.

Anyway to finish, foreman himself admits the klitschko's are better than him!

[ElTerribleMorales]

all the common opponents that Wlad and George had were opponents old 40+ yr old George took on

I already stated that didn't i? On a more consistant basis wlad has fought much larger opponents! George's best win was former LHW moorer in a fight he was getting schooled, moorer barely beat average axel schultz managing only a SD, he was also kayoed in 1 by tua!

The cooney fight was an embarrasment that should never have happened it is basically the equivalent of tyson fighting bowe now!!
Imagine the shit this division would get if that happened! Foreman also struggled with a young-overly cautious shannon briggs so we can discount that version ruling todays era of hw's!

George # 2 was far more focused on lasting the 12 rounds which is the best way to train. He wasn't as wild, concentrated more on setting up his punches and not just charging and swing away. I do believe the George Foreman of 1973 vs. Frazier, would probably have beat George #2 but...

The later version was a better more patient boxer. The early George was a slugger who if he did not knock someone out in 3 or 4 rounds got extremely frustrated. He went the distance with Holyfield on April 19 1991 and actually had more left than Holyfield even at the 42. Early on he was a one dimensional puncher and a bully. The later version was better. Also his demeanor was much better the early George was a bitter angry man.

Power is the last thing to go in a fighters arsenal,foreman focused on this rather than any other aspect of his training in his comeback, watch the legendary nights documentary and it will show him carrying like a dead animal (a big animal like a bear or somethin not that big though on his shoulders), then he wears this thing on his chest with a cable that's connected to a car and he pulls it....He does lot of weights, and lots of wood chopping....

BY GEORGE (his auto):"I never ran more than 3 miles a day in my first career but in the begining of my comeback i was doing mini - marithons of 5 or more miles", (the cow picture WAS a stunt for people mag. but the 2 guys helping foreman hold the cow fell down and left george actually holding the animal!)

Boxing Illustrated 12/95:in the old days I never hit the heavybag less than 6 rounds a day but no more than 8
The Fight by Norman mailer: says that while watching him train in zaire foreman would brood around and shadowbox for 20 minutes or so, do about 10 minutes of calethenics, then spar for 4 rounds, heavy bag for 15 minutes,then the speed bag for a round, then finish with a short stint on the rope and leave...(this was only a week or so before the fight and i am guessing a light workout?)

FROM GEORGES OLD COLUMN IN USA WEEKEND:"when i fought Fraizer in 73 and took off my robe everyone said "how can i get a stomach like that george? and the truth is/was i never did more than 100 sit-ups a day, "I looked at a photo of myself from the second Fraizer fight and thought my chest looked great and i remembered dick sadler always had me do my push ups 3 sets of 10 one with my hands in close, one at shoulder width, and one just passed shoulder width"." I never lifted weights much as a young man".

If im totally honest i think frazier makes foreman look better than he actually was....Don't get me wrong of course he was a great fighter with a big punch but when younger foreman beat Frazier, joe was out of shape, he prepared for the first Foreman fight by touring with a funk band. Foreman was a nobody at this point and Frazier didn't take him seriously at all. If Mike Tyson or some other "fan favorite" lost under these circumstances Frazier's poor preperation would be talked about to death.

Fraizer II-fought smarter but physically totally shot after Manilla.

Anyway to finish, foreman himself admits the klitschko's are better than him!

again Foreman was way passed it and ancient when he fought Briggs and he still beat him only to be robbed, also a completely focused George never lost to anyone the likes of Puritty, Sanders (RIP) , or Brewster, which were shorter, half an inch taller, and shorter than Foreman, so Big George being smaller wouldn't have been an issue given he would have an inch reach advantage and the sledgehammer jab followed by his jackhammer right hand

I'm not trying to bash either Klitschko cause I'm one of the few that does give them their dues, but don't try and discredit a legend like Frazier or Foreman only to try and build them both (especially in this case Wlad) up when it's a straight up FACT that they are fighting in one of the worst eras that the HW division has seen, it's not their fault but it still is a factor to their dominance

[Beanz]

This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.

Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.

That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali.

[Peter Plys 44]

This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.

Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.

That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali.

If you want to compare two boxers than you just have to say boxer X year 2012 vs. boxer Y year 1970. All other factors are irrelevant if you want to compare two boxers across time. The only reason to mention size, nutrition and blah blah blah blah is if you want past boxers to be the best.

"Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in" - why? Last time I read the rules there was no weight limit in the HW division. What do you mean by saying "factor that in"? Should K2 start down 1 points every rd. or what?

[imp]

Whether 100 years from now or a 1000 years. There will never be another ali..but there will be plenty of vlads. And that says it all.