A viewpoint that may prove unpopular. (Weights,Margarito, Castillo etc.)

Recently I read an article on Jose Luis Castillo.
His name is instantly recoghnisable to this day. To any boxing fan it seems like just yesterday that he was at war with the late Diego Corrales.
However, it must be noted that it is only the quality of the fight that makes it seem so recent, a lot of water has passed beneath Jose's bridge since that epic.

Jose Luis Castillo....If one references the acrimonious boxrec one will identify perhaps 20 fighters with this name, they will also be presented with 20 more Jose Castillo's and 20 Luis Castillo's, yet Jose Luis is set apart from these, not only by his success, but by his recognition.

He gained recognition because of his size, Listed as 5'8'' and apperaing taller, much of his early career was invested at Feather weight and he rose to prominence as a Lightweight and earlier Jr. Lightweight.
In recent years he has had a desperate struggle with weight and his past success has been forgotten with narrow victories and costly defeats.

Jose has in the past acknowledged that he always aimed to make the lowest weight possible. He did this in order to optimise his physical advantages of size, reach and power. He acknowledged that he would be nowhere near as effective at fighting at higher weights. On a past date, on which he announced his then future trip north to Light Welter and welterweight he was asked about a potentialbout with Antonio Margarito.
Exasperated Jose replied, "What would I want to fight a guy like THAT for?!"
He knew his limitations and he waged war with his body to get to impossible weights in order to be competitive. This is common in boxing, no shame in this at all. Ricky Hatton does the same, as do much of the Light Middleweight division.

However, this does raise questions about certain cuurent champions.

Antonio Margarito.
A monster at Welterweight.
Yet he looked less than spectacular at 154lbs. 3 of his losses came to Light Middlewight fighters, Cervantes, Jones and Santos. In these fights his "usual" physical adavntages didn't account as much and he did not have the refinement to score the wins.
In truth he has developed wth these losses and is a greater fighhter now than any of his conquerours.

But what now if he rose to Light Middleweight?
Would he find himself less effective against men that equal him in size?
Would he find his ferocity negated by men that can cope with his volume and pressure as they are accustomed to his level of power?

Ricky Hatton certainly demonstrated that when a volume pressure fighter is taken from his natural element and the opposition increased in size, he couldn't live with bigger men muffling his work.

Juan Diaz
A good quality fighter at lightweight, his pressure has proved the undoing of many fighter and he is exciting as they come.
Yet he faltered when his punches had no effect on the wily and prepared Nate Campbell.
Would his punches lack of potencey bear him utterly ineffective at Light Welter?

Who else do you feel needs to keep to their chosen weight division in order to be a success?

Do you feel it is justifiable that fighters starve themselves down to make the weight and capitalise, beating "smaller" fighters? Or do you feel, if they put in the work in training camp they deserve to be active at their desired weight?

What about health. Do you feel that the effect of wweight loss on a fighter should be treated more sternly? How could we address this?

Do you agree with my examples?
(I'll bet not with Margarito....Huge props to the Tornado.)

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Recently I read an article on Jose Luis Castillo.
His name is instantly recoghnisable to this day. To any boxing fan it seems like just yesterday that he was at war with the late Diego Corrales.
However, it must be noted that it is only the quality of the fight that makes it seem so recent, a lot of water has passed beneath Jose's bridge since that epic.

Jose Luis Castillo....If one references the acrimonious boxrec one will identify perhaps 20 fighters with this name, they will also be presented with 20 more Jose Castillo's and 20 Luis Castillo's, yet Jose Luis is set apart from these, not only by his success, but by his recognition.

He gained recognition because of his size, Listed as 5'8'' and apperaing taller, much of his early career was invested at Feather weight and he rose to prominence as a Lightweight and earlier Jr. Lightweight.
In recent years he has had a desperate struggle with weight and his past success has been forgotten with narrow victories and costly defeats.

Jose has in the past acknowledged that he always aimed to make the lowest weight possible. He did this in order to optimise his physical advantages of size, reach and power. He acknowledged that he would be nowhere near as effective at fighting at higher weights. On a past date, on which he announced his then future trip north to Light Welter and welterweight he was asked about a potentialbout with Antonio Margarito.
Exasperated Jose replied, "What would I want to fight a guy like THAT for?!"
He knew his limitations and he waged war with his body to get to impossible weights in order to be competitive. This is common in boxing, no shame in this at all. Ricky Hatton does the same, as do much of the Light Middleweight division.

However, this does raise questions about certain cuurent champions.

Antonio Margarito.
A monster at Welterweight.
Yet he looked less than spectacular at 154lbs. 3 of his losses came to Light Middlewight fighters, Cervantes, Jones and Santos. In these fights his "usual" physical adavntages didn't account as much and he did not have the refinement to score the wins.
In truth he has developed wth these losses and is a greater fighhter now than any of his conquerours.

But what now if he rose to Light Middleweight?
Would he find himself less effective against men that equal him in size?
Would he find his ferocity negated by men that can cope with his volume and pressure as they are accustomed to his level of power?

Ricky Hatton certainly demonstrated that when a volume pressure fighter is taken from his natural element and the opposition increased in size, he couldn't live with bigger men muffling his work.

Juan Diaz
A good quality fighter at lightweight, his pressure has proved the undoing of many fighter and he is exciting as they come.
Yet he faltered when his punches had no effect on the wily and prepared Nate Campbell.
Would his punches lack of potencey bear him utterly ineffective at Light Welter?

Who else do you feel needs to keep to their chosen weight division in order to be a success?

Do you feel it is justifiable that fighters starve themselves down to make the weight and capitalise, beating "smaller" fighters? Or do you feel, if they put in the work in training camp they deserve to be active at their desired weight?

What about health. Do you feel that the effect of wweight loss on a fighter should be treated more sternly? How could we address this?

Do you agree with my examples?
(I'll bet not with Margarito....Huge props to the Tornado.)

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GREAT POST BY THE WAY!!! I was wanting to create one but my boxing knowledge is very limited and I'm scared to be criticized for making one.
If they are effective and healthy in the process why not, but in IMO I'd rather see two equally size fighters being pit together from the get go. Well It's just me.
Thats why I'm more prouder than ever before for Kelly Pavlik for steppin up in weight vs Taylor in the rematch and against Hopkins in Oct, Miguel Cotto for having the courage to step up in a welterweight division filled with guys 5'10" up being 5'7" himself and to Manny Pacquio for obvious reasons.

Good post

you can argue that size particular height is an advantage and in most cases it is, but if you don't have the skill to match the your size and you are against the right kind of fighter that advantage can be reversed

I remember watching Ricky Hatton fight a freak at LWW called Tony Pep I think he was Canadian he was limited but was about 6'1" and was made for Hatton, that long body for Hatton to break apart and Ricky closes distance in amazing speed.

But that was at LWW and we did see how exposed Hatton was at WW

Its most obvious when someone like Judda walks in to the ring at 143 and Clotty walks in at 150 + this is when it become difficult

Donny i cant fault you at all, excellent post. Id give you an old fashion cool one if i could! ;D

There are so many boxers who boil down to the lowest weight possible to either a) exploit their advantages or b) hide there own disadvantages.

Ricky Hatton for example boils down from 12st to hide the fact that he's a fat Kunt ;D ;D

I have a problem with the weigh-in rules, but I don't blame them on the fighters provided they make the weight fairly.

Some fighters have the ability and styles (and talent) to move up in weight and be successful.

DLH was big at the lighter weights, and had the skills and talent to be successful at the higher weights. He wasn't as powerful in the higher weights, but has always had that great left jab, left hook, solid fundamentals, etc...

Mayweather is another guy who was successful in numerous weight classes due to skills, style, and talent. Yes, Baldomir is slow as molasses, but he outweighed PBF by a dozen lbs on fight night. DLH had quite a size advantage on PBF as well.

Others who rely more on strength are less likely to be as successful in different weight classes.

It also shows how special Duran and Chavez were to be successful in different weight classes with pressure styles, and how they had other tricks in the bag other than being strong and tough. They had smarts and terrific skills.

Quite frankly I dont understand the question? Surely any fighter will (should) try to fight at the weight where he is most competitive? Doing so can never be unfair, can it?

This is why hitmandonny.. and this is just my own opinion, based on what you have said, that..
Williams vs Margarito II should be made ASAP.
I remember Sergio Mora saying that Tony is the same size he is and Sergio has been fighting at 154 and 160.

As of late, Paul Williams has been calling out any one in FOUR different weight classes from 147 to 168 :o So, we know he is not going to just be fighting at 147.
Tony did pretty good against Santos.
Santos is a champ today again.
There are plenty of fights for Tony and Williams. It will be interesting what these guys do in the near future. I can't wait.
Is the weight thing fair? It is what it is ;D
But I do hear what you are saying and your examples are pretty fair some people can move up and their style works, while others move up and look like shiet in the process.
There is no doubt in my mind, that Tony could move up to 154 and take on Mora ;D they know each other very well :D Santos Margarito III would be a fight I would also like to see ;) I don't know what else to say.

I think same day weigh-ins should be more common place, with what Castillo was doing and let's face it most everyone lower than welter weight. The long term effects of dehydration cannot be ignored.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

GREAT POST BY THE WAY!!! I was wanting to create one but my boxing knowledge is very limited and I'm scared to be criticized for making one.
If they are effective and healthy in the process why not, but in IMO I'd rather see two equally size fighters being pit together from the get go. Well It's just me.
Thats why I'm more prouder than ever before for Kelly Pavlik for steppin up in weight vs Taylor in the rematch and against Hopkins in Oct, Miguel Cotto for having the courage to step up in a welterweight division filled with guys 5'10" up being 5'7" himself and to Manny Pacquio for obvious reasons.

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Absolutley, a man that even steps up one division to be succesful is above a "good fighter."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonny78

Good post

you can argue that size particular height is an advantage and in most cases it is, but if you don't have the skill to match the your size and you are against the right kind of fighter that advantage can be reversed

I remember watching Ricky Hatton fight a freak at LWW called Tony Pep I think he was Canadian he was limited but was about 6'1" and was made for Hatton, that long body for Hatton to break apart and Ricky closes distance in amazing speed.

But that was at LWW and we did see how exposed Hatton was at WW

Its most obvious when someone like Judda walks in to the ring at 143 and Clotty walks in at 150 + this is when it become difficult

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One point I feel needs to be added is even a fighter killing himself to make the weight, will still be stronger when rehydrated and renourished, than a smaller guy at the weight.

Good point on Judah Clottey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimafee

Donny i cant fault you at all, excellent post. Id give you an old fashion cool one if i could! ;D

There are so many boxers who boil down to the lowest weight possible to either a) exploit their advantages or b) hide there own disadvantages.

Ricky Hatton for example boils down from 12st to hide the fact that he's a fat Kunt ;D ;D

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Thank you Jim.

Thats a good analysis there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer

I have a problem with the weigh-in rules, but I don't blame them on the fighters provided they make the weight fairly.

Some fighters have the ability and styles (and talent) to move up in weight and be successful.

DLH was big at the lighter weights, and had the skills and talent to be successful at the higher weights. He wasn't as powerful in the higher weights, but has always had that great left jab, left hook, solid fundamentals, etc...

Mayweather is another guy who was successful in numerous weight classes due to skills, style, and talent. Yes, Baldomir is slow as molasses, but he outweighed PBF by a dozen lbs on fight night. DLH had quite a size advantage on PBF as well.

Others who rely more on strength are less likely to be as successful in different weight classes.

It also shows how special Duran and Chavez were to be successful in different weight classes with pressure styles, and how they had other tricks in the bag other than being strong and tough. They had smarts and terrific skills.

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I feel in this day and age, we may put too much pressure on our fighters to move up.
Perhaps as fans we are expecting too much for one fighter to rule a division and then attack another?
What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikkel_K

Quite frankly I dont understand the question? Surely any fighter will (should) try to fight at the weight where he is most competitive? Doing so can never be unfair, can it?

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The point I raise is, often it is unhealthy to do this over prolonged periods of time, some may view it as an unfair advantage and if weigh ins were on the day quite simply these guys wouldn't do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danny_G

This is why hitmandonny.. and this is just my own opinion, based on what you have said, that..
Williams vs Margarito II should be made ASAP.
I remember Sergio Mora saying that Tony is the same size he is and Sergio has been fighting at 154 and 160.

As of late, Paul Williams has been calling out any one in FOUR different weight classes from 147 to 168 :o So, we know he is not going to just be fighting at 147.
Tony did pretty good against Santos.
Santos is a champ today again.
There are plenty of fights for Tony and Williams. It will be interesting what these guys do in the near future. I can't wait.
Is the weight thing fair? It is what it is ;D
But I do hear what you are saying and your examples are pretty fair some people can move up and their style works, while others move up and look like shiet in the process.
There is no doubt in my mind, that Tony could move up to 154 and take on Mora ;D they know each other very well :D Santos Margarito III would be a fight I would also like to see ;) I don't know what else to say.

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Agreed on Williams Tony Williams certainly.

I never meant to discredit Tony.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

I think same day weigh-ins should be more common place, with what Castillo was doing and let's face it most everyone lower than welter weight. The long term effects of dehydration cannot be ignored.

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I too feel same day weigh ins would be a good idea.
Perhapos for non title bouts, leaving the title bouts as they are for championship reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

I think same day weigh-ins should be more common place, with what Castillo was doing and let's face it most everyone lower than welter weight. The long term effects of dehydration cannot be ignored.

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I too feel same day weigh ins would be a good idea.
Perhapos for non title bouts, leaving the title bouts as they are for championship reasons.

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To be honest I'm not sure why you think same day weigh ins would be better?

I've had to weigh in straight before bouts (within an hour of competing) and I've weighed in a day before and I preferred having as much time between the weigh in and the bout as possible.

I'll always make the weight regardless of when the weigh in is but it's less draining physically and emotionally to get it out of the way a little earlier.

It leaves you with more energy and fully hydrated to put in a better performance on fight night. Perhaps that would translate to livlier, more action packed fights from a spectators point of view also?

Isn't competing dehydrated supposed to be one of the major things predisposing fighters to brain injury (not 100 % sure but i think i've heard/read that - maybe on here somewhere)?

Have the weigh in a day before and you decrease the likelyhood of people competing dehydrated at least surely?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sharla

To be honest I'm not sure why you think same day weigh ins would be better?

I've had to weigh in straight before bouts (within an hour of competing) and I've weighed in a day before and I preferred having as much time between the weigh in and the bout as possible.

I'll always make the weight regardless of when the weigh in is but it's less draining physically and emotionally to get it out of the way a little earlier.

It leaves you with more energy and fully hydrated to put in a better performance on fight night. Perhaps that would translate to livlier, more action packed fights from a spectators point of view also?

Isn't competing dehydrated supposed to be one of the major things predisposing fighters to brain injury (not 100 % sure but i think i've heard/read that - maybe on here somewhere)?

Have the weigh in a day before and you decrease the likelyhood of people competing dehydrated at least surely?!

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The idea was actually propsed in order to limit inury and dehydration.

The thought was that any sensible fighter would not attempt to drain themselves too much by making weight the day of a fight.
I know Castillo had he been forced to weigh in on the day, would never have competed at feather, superfeather or Lightweight, divisions he was a real threat in because of his huge size advantage.