When a ref says "TEN!"

When a ref says "TEN!" doesn't that mean the fighter was knocked out? I always thought it did. In discussing the Cintron knockout, it seemed that Kellerman and that HBO crew were saying that a fighter must only be on his feet by the count of "ten", and that the ref saying "ten" does not necessarily constitute a knock out.

yeah the way I'd see it is the ref says ten thats the count over, end of fight... if the fighters up before 10 theres no need for the ref to say 10 :-\

i clearly heard the ref reach 10 and then throw his arms out to indicate that the fight was over...then kind of freeze as cintron argued it was a headbutt and change his mind!!

Im all for refs taking time in order to get the correct decision, but when a fighter fails to make it to his feet come the count of 10 the fight should be over..end of

A ighter must be on his feet standing erect and able to walk forward towards the referee by or on the count of ten

It was a very close call, but on TV they slowed it down and showed that his knee was off the ground before the ref said 10.

I mean, let's all thing logically here. Everyone put one knee on the ground, and say out loud, "ten". As you start the word, lift your knee off of the ground. OMG, you managed to lift your knee off of the ground before you finished saying ten.

Also, a lot of times when someone is counted out the full 10 count, they are almost always visibly unable to get up. If a fighter is on one knee, waits for the 8 count, plus 9 and gets up at the last second, I think that unless the fighter struggles to get up, then you should let him continue. It was so close to the point where Cintron clearly was able to get up, and did so.

I do think it was controversial though, because the ref hesitated before he said 10, but what can you do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RP33

It was a very close call, but on TV they slowed it down and showed that his knee was off the ground before the ref said 10.

I mean, let's all thing logically here. Everyone put one knee on the ground, and say out loud, "ten". As you start the word, lift your knee off of the ground. OMG, you managed to lift your knee off of the ground before you finished saying ten.

Also, a lot of times when someone is counted out the full 10 count, they are almost always visibly unable to get up. If a fighter is on one knee, waits for the 8 count, plus 9 and gets up at the last second, I think that unless the fighter struggles to get up, then you should let him continue. It was so close to the point where Cintron clearly was able to get up, and did so.

I do think it was controversial though, because the ref hesitated before he said 10, but what can you do?

---

the standard procedure is to be up by 8 and even if he did make the count why the hell didnt the ref ask him to come forward with his gloves up just to make sure he was ready to fight rather than chuck his arms in the air.

Cintron was far from out of it but rules are rules and that should of been that with kermit getting counted out through sheer stupidity

I don't know. Something is just off about this fight. The fight being over and then back on again. Also the ridiculous scorecards at the end of this fight. Seems to me someone was looking out for Cintron in this fight. I would hope this fight will be investigated.

The thing that confused me was that Kellerman kept going on and on about Cintron's gloves being off the canvas before ten, and so the ref got the call right. Is there some rule that if the round ends you need only have your gloves off the canvas before ten to be considered "up"? If so, what the hell kind of rule is that? If not, what the hell was Kellerman talking about?

I'm not sure if it varies from state to state, but I think ultimately the ref has a lot of discretion as to what he wants to do as far as when the fight is actually over. The odd thing is that I've never before seen a ref wave off a fight-which it looks like he did in this fight-and then change his mind like the case the other night.

However, apparently a ref does have the prerogative to change his mind. I remember on FNF or WNF when Anthony Bonsante played opossum and the ref waved it off. Even though Bonsante jumped up after a 6 count and argued vehemently that his was fine, the ref didn't change his mind. Teddy kept saying that if the ref wanted to he could of retracted the waving off, and in light of Bonsante's obviously clear state, allowed the fight to continue. When they interviewed the ref later, he admitted that if he indeed could of chosen to change his mind and allow the fight to continue.

I've seen many times where it appeared that the ref was second guessing their decision to wave off a fight, but as I said I've never before seen a reversal. Even after that FNF incident, I always wondered if it was really legal. I still wonder as in this case there's the added controversy over whether Cintron was up at ten, and did or did not the ref wave it off?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myk_Myk

I'm not sure if it varies from state to state, but I think ultimately the ref has a lot of discretion as to what he wants to do as far as when the fight is actually over. The odd thing is that I've never before seen a ref wave off a fight-which it looks like he did in this fight-and then change his mind like the case the other night.

---

One thing I wondered is that maybe the ref didn't intend his hand gesture to be taken as the end of the fight, but an indication that the round was over and Martinez couldn't get anymore shots off. Most of the time when a ref waves off a fight, he'll demonstratively wag his arm back and forth. In this case, the ref only stuck his hand in the air and made no verbal signal that he was ending the fight. So, I guess it's possible he just meant to indicate the round was over. Who knows, though. Either way, Martinez should have gotten the win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RP33

It was a very close call, but on TV they slowed it down and showed that his knee was off the ground before the ref said 10.

I mean, let's all thing logically here. Everyone put one knee on the ground, and say out loud, "ten". As you start the word, lift your knee off of the ground. OMG, you managed to lift your knee off of the ground before you finished saying ten.

Also, a lot of times when someone is counted out the full 10 count, they are almost always visibly unable to get up. If a fighter is on one knee, waits for the 8 count, plus 9 and gets up at the last second, I think that unless the fighter struggles to get up, then you should let him continue. It was so close to the point where Cintron clearly was able to get up, and did so.

I do think it was controversial though, because the ref hesitated before he said 10, but what can you do?

---

the standard procedure is to be up by 8 and even if he did make the count why the hell didnt the ref ask him to come forward with his gloves up just to make sure he was ready to fight rather than chuck his arms in the air.

Cintron was far from out of it but rules are rules and that should of been that with kermit getting counted out through sheer stupidity

---

"the standard procedure is to be up by 8".. No.. There is a standing 8 count, meaning if you get knocked down and get up on your feet at 3, the ref still counts to 8. There is no standard procedure for WHEN you are supposed to get up. You just have to beat the 10 count.

It almost seemed the ref was confused as to why he wasn't getting up, which is probably why he hesitated before he said 10. Either way in slow motion, it showed he beat the count.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClubberLang

The thing that confused me was that Kellerman kept going on and on about Cintron's gloves being off the canvas before ten, and so the ref got the call right. Is there some rule that if the round ends you need only have your gloves off the canvas before ten to be considered "up"? If so, what the hell kind of rule is that? If not, what the hell was Kellerman talking about?

---

It seemed Kellerman originally thought that only Cintrons gloves were on the ground. But eventually, i remember him saying that "only the soles of your feet can be on the ground". Listen to it again, he corrects himself.

Yeah, when it's definitely over the ref usually waves both hands in a crossing inside to outside wave in front of the losing fighter. In this case he didn't really do that. Unfortunately, Cintron got a lot of extra time to recover do to his and his corners antics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RP33

It seemed Kellerman originally thought that only Cintrons gloves were on the ground. But eventually, i remember him saying that "only the soles of your feet can be on the ground". Listen to it again, he corrects himself.

---

Fair enough, I missed the correction. Thanks for the info That had me scratching my head.

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myk_Myk

I think the ref gave him some leeway on the count because Cintron seemed pretty clear headed as he was arguing that it was a head butt, and popped up pretty fast. I've seen plenty of times when it seemed a ref expected a fighter to be fully erect, to be considered beating the count. Although maybe that explains why those instances are often called TKOs instead of KOs, because the fighter technically beat the count but the ref deemed them too shaky to continue?

---

Yeah, Cintron seemed clear head, he either was convinced the ref would rule a headbutt or was trying to sell it as such. I just wish the HBO crew would have interviewed Cintron after the fight. The idiot was say, "He knows I won." I wanted them to show him the footage showing it as a clear punch and hear what his spin was.