Like what I've said, if he defeats Hatton convincingly, he's within the top 5 all time great along with Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, etc.
So to make this formal in saddo, please post your unbiased opinion.:cool:
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Like what I've said, if he defeats Hatton convincingly, he's within the top 5 all time great along with Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, etc.
So to make this formal in saddo, please post your unbiased opinion.:cool:
If Manny were to fight and beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly think he'd have a case for best of all time, I mean who else in history would have won world titles in 7 weight divisions, beaten THE man in virtually every division and if he beat Floyd, beat the other p4p number 1, undefeated 6 weight world champ.
For me he'd have acomplished more than Ali and Ray Robinson.
He won't beat Floyd though ;)
But yeah I'd say already he's bordering on top 5 of all time. I mean guys like Pep and Joe Luis were great and all but they couldn't have done what Pac has done, and tore through half a dozen weight classes and not just beating but knocking out hall of fame fighters.
He's a living legend and if he fights Floyd I think that will be the biggest fight of the last 20 years. If Floyd beats Marquez which I expect he will they are the Leonard and Duran of our times.
After this win I think Manny is starting to accomplish more than anyone has done in their actual career since Ali in terms of being recognized for how good they are while they are in the sport.
IMO he should be top 15 p4p ever.
He most likely is top 10 p4p ever.
He possibly could be top 5 p4p ever, but IMO he still needs to beat Marquez convincingly and/or Mayweather to do that.
It's hard to say where exactly he fits in in terms of the all-time greats. However, one thing that cannot be disputed (even before his shit-kicking of Hatton) is that he is an all-time great and a fighter that decades from now we will say we were privileged to watch. He is without a doubt one of the best fighters of all time.
I still think Mayweather beats him (though there's no shame in that and it in no way hurts his legacy) and I still hate his fanboys, but he's a great fighter. I feel like I should be rooting for him all the time, but I just can't. I know it's a juvenile position, but it's the way I feel.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
I won't bother trying to rank Pac in the top 20 or whatever, but I feel he's proven himself to be an all-time great and has, IMO, surpassed Mayweather. PBF is a better fighter, but Pac - through the quality of his opposition - has placed himself ahead of Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
You wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
This was an outstanding performance. Is the Pacman top 5 of all time? Bring me the head of Floyd Mayweather jr Manny and i might say yes. To change divisions without losing any of his abilities and win in outstanding fashion makes the Pacman a candidate for this coveted ranking amongst the ATGs.
Remembering he started at Flyweight and has won against DLH at 147 and now knocks out Ricky Hatton who conqurered Kostya Tszyu at 140 is unbelievable, i still don't believe it.
I never thought for 1 minute Pacquiao would KO Hatton in 2!!
Currently Pacman has moved ahead of Mayweather in the ATG list with this win and surely a match up must be made by the end of the year.
Mayweather isn't coming back for nothing, he will find Marquez a handful too, he will need all he rounds he can get with the Pacman waiting in the wings. Mayweather might not even beat Marquez and then we see Pac V Marquez 3, either way we win as fight fans.
I am very impressed and i now rate Pacquiao ahead of both Pryor and Tszyu at 140lb.
Mayweather will now insist on a fight with Pacquiao at 147 because at 140lb i see the Pacman KTFO Floyd Mayweather jr!!!
Well my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
i think talk of atg regarding manny should only be after he's finished with his career.
there's still pbf and jmm looming.
I am NOT disputing his greatness or that he's not an ATG.
I am disputing him top 5 all time.
It would be stupid to say he's not an ATG.
He is but top 5 all time? Not in my books.
Pacquiao entering realm of all-time great
Pacquiao chases history - Boxing - Yahoo! Sports
I like the part when Kevin Iole in the second article said that Manny is limited because of his height and small frame, imagine if he he was a bit bigger :)
For what PAC has accomplished, how he accomplished it and for his size it is indeed a FEAT.
At least top 20!!!
Well Mick I won't pretend I know a great deal about a lot of fighters on that list but let me run through a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWell my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
Marvin Hagler. Sorry but Pacquaio in my opinion rates above Hagler. Hagler stuck to a single weight class and fought I believe 3 Hall of Famers, certainly three great fighters. One he KO'd in spectacular fashion, another coming up from lightweight he won on points (I don't think that is all THAT amazing) and the other the Ray Leonard he lost. You may argue it was close but he still lost. He never went to light heavy let alone up to heavyweight which is the equivilant of what Manny has done.
Hopkins, Surely Manny's resume is better than Hop's. Hopkins is a legend but his biggest wins in his prime were against smaller men, and his even though he's a two weight champ he never fought a bigger man in his career, Hopkins was always a light heavyweight. I consider Pacquaio's resume to be above Hopkins.
Joe Luis reigned for an awful long time but he never beat anyone in the top 20 All time great list so how can you disqualify Pacqauio for not having done that (when there simply havnt been any top 20 all times for him to fight) but not penalise Luis.
And comparing fights Pacqauio's wins are better than Luis no question imo. Luis never fought any other all time great heavy's yet Pacqauio has beaten a who's who of all time greats.
Monzon, again ruled only one weight class. I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time. Add in Marquez, Hatton and De Le Hoya and I think Manny eclipses him.
Willie Pep is another that mystifies me a bit. Stuck in one division as far as I know and the only fighters he fought whose names I recognise he lost to.
I simply don't think it as impressive to stay in one weight class and beat all comers (actually most in your list didn't even do that they lost significant fights as well) rather than move through 6 (SIX!!) weight classes and beat the BEST in those division.s
I honestly think his resume is much better than most of those you mention and its only nostalgia that taints our view.
For a man to come from flyweight to rule as high as junior welter and beat a legend at welter is something that to my knowledge has never been done in the history of the sport, certainly not in the modern game.
Jones Jr went up to heavyweight, fought the weakest champ and won on points, Manny went up to light welter, fought the undisputed champ at the weight and destroyed him in two rounds.
He is the kind of fighter the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen in the sport exactly, a fighter who not only went through 6 weight classes, an elite few have done that, but he fought the best in those divisions, and he destroyed most of them! Who else in the history of boxing has done that?
Not Jones Jr, Not Sugar Ray Leonard, not Robinson, not Duran, certainly not Hagler, Monzon, Pep etc.
He is unique in the history of the sport.
Well Mick I won't pretend I know a great deal about a lot of fighters on that list but let me run through a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWell my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
Marvin Hagler. Sorry but Pacquaio in my opinion rates above Hagler. Hagler stuck to a single weight class and fought I believe 3 Hall of Famers, certainly three great fighters. One he KO'd in spectacular fashion, another coming up from lightweight he won on points (I don't think that is all THAT amazing) and the other the Ray Leonard he lost. You may argue it was close but he still lost. He never went to light heavy let alone up to heavyweight which is the equivilant of what Manny has done.
Hopkins, Surely Manny's resume is better than Hop's. Hopkins is a legend but his biggest wins in his prime were against smaller men, and his even though he's a two weight champ he never fought a bigger man in his career, Hopkins was always a light heavyweight. I consider Pacquaio's resume to be above Hopkins.
Joe Luis reigned for an awful long time but he never beat anyone in the top 20 All time great list so how can you disqualify Pacqauio for not having done that (when there simply havnt been any top 20 all times for him to fight) but not penalise Luis.
And comparing fights Pacqauio's wins are better than Luis no question imo. Luis never fought any other all time great heavy's yet Pacqauio has beaten a who's who of all time greats.
Monzon, again ruled only one weight class. I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time. Add in Marquez, Hatton and De Le Hoya and I think Manny eclipses him.
Willie Pep is another that mystifies me a bit. Stuck in one division as far as I know and the only fighters he fought whose names I recognise he lost to.
I simply don't think it as impressive to stay in one weight class and beat all comers (actually most in your list didn't even do that they lost significant fights as well) rather than move through 6 (SIX!!) weight classes and beat the BEST in those division.s
I honestly think his resume is much better than most of those you mention and its only nostalgia that taints our view.
For a man to come from flyweight to rule as high as junior welter and beat a legend at welter is something that to my knowledge has never been done in the history of the sport, certainly not in the modern game.
Jones Jr went up to heavyweight, fought the weakest champ and won on points, Manny went up to light welter, fought the undisputed champ at the weight and destroyed him in two rounds.
He is the kind of fighter the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen in the sport exactly, a fighter who not only went through 6 weight classes, an elite few have done that, but he fought the best in those divisions, and he destroyed most of them! Who else in the history of boxing has done that?
Not Jones Jr, Not Sugar Ray Leonard, not Robinson, not Duran, certainly not Hagler, Monzon, Pep etc.
He is unique in the history of the sport.
Great articles Pavlik, I agree completely with the first one, for me Pacquaio's resume eclipses Holyfields, Hopkins, Chavez, Whitaker, Hagler maybe even Roy Jones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
This isn't a statement but a question. For those who always put Henry Armstrong at number 4 in the All Time rankings for holding 3 world titles at 3 weights at the same time.
Well in the modern era you arn't allowed to do that but Manny has in the space of 15 months won world titles in three weight classes and beaten 3 Hall of Fame fighters, two by knockout.
He's also come from flyweight to do it.
What did Armstrong do that was better? Was it the quality of his opponents? Are they all top 20 All time greats?
If you look at Armstrongs record, he lost 3 of his first 4, was KO'd in his first fight and had a record of 72-11-7 when he won his first world title.
I don't know any of the fighters he fought, how many of them are in the top 50 or even top 100 all time great list?
I truly think if Manny had done what he has done in the modern era 50 years or so ago he would be considered right now in the top 3 of all time as highly rated if not more so than Armstrong and Pep.
Before you disagree with me, please explain to me why I am wrong and specifically the opponents that Joe Luis, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Jimmy Wilde, Benny Leonard etc beat and the records they held that makes their achievements greater than Mannys?