I spent five painstaking months coming up with this P4P list. I'm Ouma the Daddy.

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

Calderon above Williams grates me. Who was his 106 lb opponent he won the title from and was he really better than Margarito?

What about his flyweight win over Hugo Cazares? Was he really that much better than Quintana or Phillips?

What about at his win at superflyweight, did it really compare with a win over Winky? No wait....Calderon only put on 3lbs he never went to super flyweight.

And a draw and SD against Rodel Mayol a fighter who was like 25-3, had been knocked out twice and had lost both previous title challenges to such heralded names as Eagle Den Junlephan and Solis and got KO'd in 4 by some guy called Adrian Hernandez, is that really as good as moving up another weight class and dominating a former p4p star in Winky

It seems to me you are actually giving Calderon more credit because a) he is tiny, and b) his punches carry less weight than an anorexic model.

Williams deserves to be above Calderon, who is very lucky to have survived unbeaten in his last two defences against a nobody.

No, Cazares is a better win than Quintana or Phillips, WTF :-\ I'd take it over a win over an old hasn't fought in 8 years Winky and really there's not that much difference between Cazares and Margarito.

We've already discussed this, does it really need to go on? I'm not as impressed as you are simply by moving up in weight end of story. Its about who you beat and sorry I just can't go too crazy about who Paul has beat. Neither really with Calderon but I like his resume better slightly.

LOL were talking about one place. I don't even feel that strongly about it, not nearly as strongly as you feel about discrediting any little fighter. A win over a guy like Mayol isn't a bad win no matter how hard you try to make it, Mayol was beaten in a great fight against a titlist in Eagle Kyowa who was a good fighter and was knocked out by Solis, another titlist and he had Solis hurt in that fight, he's not a bum.

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

No, Cazares is a better win than Quintana or Phillips, WTF :-\ I'd take it over a win over an old hasn't fought in 8 years Winky and really there's not that much difference between Cazares and Margarito.

We've already discussed this, does it really need to go on? I'm not as impressed as you are simply by moving up in weight end of story. Its about who you beat and sorry I just can't go too crazy about who Paul has beat. Neither really with Calderon but I like his resume better slightly.

LOL were talking about one place. I don't even feel that strongly about it, not nearly as strongly as you feel about discrediting any little fighter. A win over a guy like Mayol isn't a bad win no matter how hard you try to make it, Mayol was beaten in a great fight against a titlist in Eagle Kyowa who was a good fighter and was knocked out by Solis, another titlist and he had Solis hurt in that fight, he's not a bum.

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He's still a guy who twice lost in title challenges though. That's like escaping with a draw and then in a forced rematch scraping a SD win over Pauli Mallignaggi, hardly a glowing commendation for a p4p star.

Cazares is no better than Phillips, he just draw with some 11-1 guy. I guess you think he's one of those great 11-1 or 13-3 guys that seem to populate these tiny weight classes often upsetting the champions or coming close like Concepcion against Donaire, and that goat herder who beat Mijares?

It's funny how the higher divisions don't have these 11-1 and 13-3 guys constantly fighting in world title fights though? Some might see it as the main weights having improved competition and and a part timer with a 70 percent win record wouldn't be good enough to even challenge for a world title let alone win one but I guess it could be a sign that everone below 110 lbs is just gifted beyond belief and therefore nobody is an easy fight.....

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

BTW I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

I wouldn't even argue against the talent pool being shallower at those weights for the most part, do you see anybody else under 140 on that list? But there are much better fighters down there than you think which you might find out if you watched them fight every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

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I thought that might send Bilbo off to Boxrec to analyse and then destroy Hasegawa's credentials.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

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1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Juan Manuel Marquez
4 Bernard Hopkins
5 Miguel Cotto
6 Shane Mosley
7 Chad Dawson
8 Paul Williams
9 Celestino Caballero
10 Arthur Abraham

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

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It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

I actually wasn't replying to ICB there about Caballero, just popped into my head and didn't see Ice's post till after I posted. I just don't think he's one of the twenty or so best fighters in the world.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

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1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Juan Manuel Marquez
4 Bernard Hopkins
5 Miguel Cotto
6 Shane Mosley
7 Chad Dawson
8 Paul Williams
9 Celestino Caballero
10 Arthur Abraham

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I like ICB's list. We can quibble over whether Mosely should be above Cotto, but its generally which side you come down on, Cotto's for beating Mosely on points in a close fight, or Mosely for destroying the guy who destroyed Cotto.

But either way this list is reasonable and makes sense. I don't know a great deal about Cabellero so can't really comment, but the Ring likes him and he's not Nonito Donaire so it's all good.

Best p4p rankings I've seen on here.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

---

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

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:lol:

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

;D I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

---

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

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:lol:

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

;D I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

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Actually I've seen Cazares fight 3 times. Twice against Calderon, where he looked like Valuev-lite and once against Roberto Vasquez where he looked shit to me too. I guess Vasquez was a world class fighter too right, who just happend to be KO'd by another great in Drian Francisco last time out?

Seriously they are all shit pretty much down there which is why nobody can string more than two or three wins together once they reach the top.

And I'm certain that p4p Cazares would not even get as far as a title shot in any weight class above featherweight, except for maybe havyweight