I spent five painstaking months coming up with this P4P list. I'm Ouma the Daddy.

[Fenster]

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

[OumaFan]

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

BTW I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

I wouldn't even argue against the talent pool being shallower at those weights for the most part, do you see anybody else under 140 on that list? But there are much better fighters down there than you think which you might find out if you watched them fight every once in a while.

[Fenster]

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

I thought that might send Bilbo off to Boxrec to analyse and then destroy Hasegawa's credentials.

[OumaFan]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

[OumaFan]

I actually wasn't replying to ICB there about Caballero, just popped into my head and didn't see Ice's post till after I posted. I just don't think he's one of the twenty or so best fighters in the world.

[ICB]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

[OumaFan]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

[Kev]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

It's entirely subjective. Calderon has a better defence for sure but he has no power, no physical presence and doesn't have any great offensive arsenal at all.

In a p4p matchup faced with a strong, taller fighter like Cabellero would he be able to win with the limited firepower he has?

I really don't know, certainlyl I'm not confident to say he's clearly better, especially seeing as he had to rematch Cazares because some thought he lost that fight ( I didn't).

Cabellero is clearly better than Cazares imo, wins over Ponce De Leon and Molitor prove his class, no draws with 11-1 guys in the last few years.

[Kev]

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

[OumaFan]

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

[Kev]

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

Actually I've seen Cazares fight 3 times. Twice against Calderon, where he looked like Valuev-lite and once against Roberto Vasquez where he looked shit to me too. I guess Vasquez was a world class fighter too right, who just happend to be KO'd by another great in Drian Francisco last time out?

Seriously they are all shit pretty much down there which is why nobody can string more than two or three wins together once they reach the top.

And I'm certain that p4p Cazares would not even get as far as a title shot in any weight class above featherweight, except for maybe havyweight

[OumaFan]

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

[Kev]

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

I've never questioned Calderons right to be on the list only that he doesnt deserve to be abover Paul Williams on recent performances.

Baldomir, Diaz, Witter and Bunema have indeed held portions of the world tite but beating them wouldn't make anybody p4p (except Martinez in the eyes of Kellerman).

THAT'S the difference. If Baldomir was a 110 lber and he was just a name you'd give Calderon or Cazares big props for beating him whereas a win over him from Floyd or Williams would be met only with criticism for taking the fight in the first place.

The high profile weight classes are much more well known to us so we feel we can discredit any guy's wins.

But when Nonito Donaire or Huge Cazaires line up against some part timer with a 6-3 record and get taken the distance it's because the 6-3 guy was actually world class.

It's fucking retarded.

[CFH]

"Ouma the daddy"?

[OumaFan]

Fenster