Footwork Question--Pushing Off With the Trailing Foot

Sorry I make so many threads here, but it seems like the more videos I watch and books I read the more confused I get, heh ;D

anyway, very basic question. when you guys move in a direction, say forward, are you pushing off the back foot first, or just stepping with the front foot and dragging? moving backwards, are you pushing off the front foot first or just stepping with the back foot and dragging? what about left and right, same?

I'm use to just stepping and dragging. When I try to push off the trailing foot first, I tend to have to transfer my weight to the leg of the trailing foot before I can do that, and it seems to slow down my footwork.

so what's your opinion?

[Please don't apologize for posting on-topic relevant questions -- if you are ever doing too much of THAT it is the option of the admins to let you know. As long as you are on topic and asking good (specific, clear, etc) questions then they are very unlikely to object and the rest of us will be learning from your question, our own attempts to answer, and the answers of those who really have the experience and knowledge to help you (and us.)]

The answer is, yes we are pushing with our following foot. In fact, the movement is INITIATED this way so in some sense the foot that moves last is the one leading the foot that first changes its position -- i.e., the one in direction of motion may move first, but the movement STARTS from the other foot pushing (if that makes sense.)

My instructor insists on this. Fran's MyBoxingCoach.com videos are explicit on this point. I have heard others here confirm (and more accept) this method.

Not all of the books specify this method -- it isn't explicit in all of the "Title Boxing" videos (which are pretty popular, but it is consistent with most of such sources even if it isn't explicitly stated or demonstrated.

A way that I think about it (Fran or others my say this is irrelevant so we'll see):

As long as your following foot initiates and controls the action by PUSHING it isn't possible (or it's at least unlikely) that you will make these mistakes:

1. Step too far
2. Tip off your next move BEFORE you can take it
3. Move your balance the OPPOSITE way before you make the step

You can only 'push' as far as the following foot has correct purchase and balance to accommodate the movement -- so it is very unlikely you will 'push too far' but the converse mistake 'to step too far' is very easy to do by accident.

By pushing, your following foot moves you BALANCE to the next position before and while the leading foot takes the step -- nothing to see until the lead foot and the actual movement is underway even though you have been 'pushing' for some milliseconds.

If you just step with the lead foot, it is quite likely that you will first put you weight BACK towards the other foot, thus your center of gravity or balance point is going the WRONG way. This takes longer, is another way to telegraph the movement, and can get you caught with your mind going forward and your body (balance) going the opposite direction.

By pushing, you ensure that your supporting (following) foot and leg are fully loaded but SENDING you (i.e., your center of gravity) in the correct direction.

Maybe these three ideas are not technically correct -- or maybe there are more than three -- but by THINKING about it this way, I am able to move my CENTER of GRAVITY to the correct position and my feet naturally KEEP UP rather than the other way around. [Maybe this itself is a four distinct reason.]

The other way around, the feet move, and move one at a time, but THEN the center of gravity has to catch up or at best be fine tuned.

It's much more difficult to undo the feet if you change your mind -- especially if the balance and center of gravity have not yet stabilized to the correct position.

On the other (good) hand, if you start to push, and change your mind you merely STOP PUSHING, or push the another way and move the feet to fit that mental intention.

On the other hand, I could be full of beans....:o

--
HerbM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HerbM

[Please don't apologize for posting on-topic relevant questions -- if you are ever doing too much of THAT it is the option of the admins to let you know. As long as you are on topic and asking good (specific, clear, etc) questions then they are very unlikely to object and the rest of us will be learning from your question, our own attempts to answer, and the answers of those who really have the experience and knowledge to help you (and us.)]

The answer is, yes we are pushing with our following foot. In fact, the movement is INITIATED this way so in some sense the foot that moves last is the one leading the foot that first changes its position -- i.e., the one in direction of motion may move first, but the movement STARTS from the other foot pushing (if that makes sense.)

My instructor insists on this. Fran's MyBoxingCoach.com videos are explicit on this point. I have heard others here confirm (and more accept) this method.

Not all of the books specify this method -- it isn't explicit in all of the "Title Boxing" videos (which are pretty popular, but it is consistent with most of such sources even if it isn't explicitly stated or demonstrated.

A way that I think about it (Fran or others my say this is irrelevant so we'll see):

As long as your following foot initiates and controls the action by PUSHING it isn't possible (or it's at least unlikely) that you will make these mistakes:

1. Step too far
2. Tip off your next move BEFORE you can take it
3. Move your balance the OPPOSITE way before you make the step

You can only 'push' as far as the following foot has correct purchase and balance to accommodate the movement -- so it is very unlikely you will 'push too far' but the converse mistake 'to step too far' is very easy to do by accident.

By pushing, your following foot moves you BALANCE to the next position before and while the leading foot takes the step -- nothing to see until the lead foot and the actual movement is underway even though you have been 'pushing' for some milliseconds.

If you just step with the lead foot, it is quite likely that you will first put you weight BACK towards the other foot, thus your center of gravity or balance point is going the WRONG way. This takes longer, is another way to telegraph the movement, and can get you caught with your mind going forward and your body (balance) going the opposite direction.

By pushing, you ensure that your supporting (following) foot and leg are fully loaded but SENDING you (i.e., your center of gravity) in the correct direction.

Maybe these three ideas are not technically correct -- or maybe there are more than three -- but by THINKING about it this way, I am able to move my CENTER of GRAVITY to the correct position and my feet naturally KEEP UP rather than the other way around. [Maybe this itself is a four distinct reason.]

The other way around, the feet move, and move one at a time, but THEN the center of gravity has to catch up or at best be fine tuned.

It's much more difficult to undo the feet if you change your mind -- especially if the balance and center of gravity have not yet stabilized to the correct position.

On the other (good) hand, if you start to push, and change your mind you merely STOP PUSHING, or push the another way and move the feet to fit that mental intention.

On the other hand, I could be full of beans....:o

--
HerbM

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great post Herb. exactly the kind of detailed response I was hoping for.

I've read quite a few boxing books now, and watched a lot of different instructionals from the internet, and I'm surprised the only two instances I can remember it explicitly being said to push off the trailing foot is in Christy Halbert's boxing book (which is excellent), and Fran's videos, which are also very good.

This is the way I'll be practicing my footwork from now on. Considering what a seemingly small point this is, I can't believe how awkward it is for me to do. But reading your points, especially about it minimizing the size of your steps and helping maintain your center of gravity--two things I struggle with--I can definitely see the importance of it.

The main problem I'm having with it right now is not telegraphing the movement, i.e. if I want to move forward, I drop my weight onto my back leg and let it bend a little bit like a spring, and then push off it. For some reason I have hard hard time just pushing off it as it is. Going backwards and side to side, man, its even worse, but I'll get it.

Thanks for the response man.

Clarifications:

First: I don't think it "minimizes the size of your steps" so much as is "sets an effective maximum size".

You (almost) can't step TOO big this way, but you are still free to take any size step from an inch to whatever your maximum balanced step might be.

Second: Do NOT transfer your weight back to the following foot -- this is a large part of what pushing is supposed to limit and prevent.

Try this -- it might be wrong, but I had trouble too until I started thinking about or doing it this way, and my coach immediately stopped correcting my push:

Press with the pushing foot too to TAKE more weight/pressure rather than setting yourself back on that foot to transfer.

This is what I think/do. I don't really "rise up" but I ALMOST think of it like this sense my PUSH much either raise me up or push me in the desired direction -- at the moment where I WOULD rise up or shift my balance towards the lead foot the lead foot uses this pressure to step in the desired direction.

There are four main ways to move (assuming orthodox stance, reverse for Southpaw of course): Push front foot to go back or circle right. Push back foot to circle left or move forward.

Pushing to go right (away from front foot) is the most difficult since you front toes are the closest thing to the new desired location -- it's almost like push to PULL yourself around to the right. :confused:

Also, because moving right is usually a (big) PIVOT -- not simple a side step so putting more pressure on those toes is a little more likely to add friction resistance to that pivot on the same toes (the front/following foot.)

This (move right) is the most awkward or unnatural for me, and I suspect it is for this reason. So, I tend to ACCENTUATE the "push up to take the weight" onto the front foot in this case.

Notice PLEASE: I am not suggesting that you are actually bobbing upwards, but rather that you are THINKING this way and immediately using the weight TAKING transfer (taking weight by pushing) to allow the moving foot to move freely (as the weight comes off it a bit).

Remember, the weight is coming off the leading foot NOT because we shifted to the following foot but because the following foot PUSHED to take on more of the pressure/weight of the stance.

I really believe this is that is going on so if it helps you use it, but do continue to treat this as unconfirmed rumor since...

I might be full of baloney (and beans.)

its all about balance, if you had to slide a tall standing refridgerator across the ground where would you push it at the top or the bottom?

Francis was a good Fighter some years ago. He talks a lot of Sense for a Scoucer ;D

Hey Thaiboxer

I've not read any of the posted replies from the guys. Anyways, my view is this:

Always push off the leg furthest away from the direction you are going. By pushing/thrusting off the leg rather than 'stepping and dragging', you are able to generate the explosive speed to get in, unload your shots, and get out again. This to me seems like cold, hard logic. Stepping and dragging is for journeymen heavyweights.

I've put some of this stuff on vid here. Hope it helps mate

Fran

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Thaiboxer

I've not read any of the posted replies from the guys. Anyways, my view is this:

Always push off the leg furthest away from the direction you are going. By pushing/thrusting off the leg rather than 'stepping and dragging', you are able to generate the explosive speed to get in, unload your shots, and get out again. This to me seems like cold, hard logic. Stepping and dragging is for journeymen heavyweights.

I've put some of this stuff on vid here. Hope it helps mate

Fran

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Fran, the basics of my post consist of what you write above -- and a reference to your video on that subject.

I would greatly appreciate it -- if you find time -- if you read my responses above and criticize what you find there.

Please tell me what you think is correct, incorrect, incomplete, or irrelevant.

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Herb

Herb and Co

Please accept my apologies for not taking the time to read the posts from you guys. If I've broken forum etiquette then I'm genuinely sorry and will not do it again! OK, apologies over (this doesn't count for Scrap by the way ;)), I've now taken the time to go through the thread and may have some additional simple points to contribute, I hope they make sense and are of use.

When considering movement, especially how far we should move, we need to really consider the implications of being in-range or out of range (at it's most simple). I like to think about boxers as operating 'on the edge of range'. It strikes me that all of the top guys hold an inate understanding of where they are in relation to their opponent....to the millimetre! Herb is exactly right to establish the understanding of not moving too far. The reason that I say this is that the difference of being in range and being out of range is inches, maybe the width of a fist is a useful gauge.

Let's take for example throwing a common three punch combination; the left (jab), right (cross) and left hook (mid range). This combination consists of 3 shots, 2 long-range and one mid-range. The starting point is that as a boxer you are 'on the edge of range'. The mechanics of the combination are (assuming that the opponent remains static):

1. Combine a push forward (only a very short distance, width of a fist) with the jab. Both skills performed at the same time, moves the boxer very quickly into range and improves the 'sting' of the jab.
2. Throw a right cross (as we are still at long range)
3. Combine a push forward with a mid-range left hook.

At the end of the combination (which at competition speed should have taken maybe half a second), you find yourself at mid-range and in a position to deliver further shots or expedite a quick escape back to 'the edge of range' with a push from the front leg. Within the combination, you have made 2 movements forward, taking you from the edge of range to mid-range, albeit that these movements combine to form a distance of only 6 to 7 inches.

A point that our friend ThaiBoxer states is that he (or she) has to transfer their weight to the leg that does the pushing (in the example the rear leg). I tend to be of the opinion that your body weight should always be central or on the back leg. Weight (or more accurately the body) should not be 'over' the front leg as this messes with balance and may make those shots that we occasionally get hit with hurt a lot more! Keep that weight central or on the back leg Thai, get use to the feeling, build those neural pathways mate!

On a final point, and relating to Herb's post, don't restrict yourself to four ways of movement. Think of a compass on the ground, and you can move in any direction on that compass, building around the 8 main points. As an orthodox boxer, it's is very difficult to move diagonally right and forward (north east). It feels very unnatural and awkward. The way to get around this awkwardness is to be pragmatic. Seek to move just ahead of east. You are still moving diagonally forward and to the right, but a little more subtle. Mastering sidesteps is very important. Combining sidesteps with slips and rolls successfully is pure gold!!!!

I hope this is of use, and again my apologies for not reading the efforts of other members...it's not like me as I am usually quite thorough about this.

Catch you soon, from this old over-the-hill palooka (for your benefit Scrap)!

Fran

No apology necessary. To my knowledge you broke NO forum etiquette.

My request was merely because I wanted to take advantage of your experience to review what my thoughts on this, so I asked you to read and criticize my postings.

Of course, you are right about movement really being 360 degrees, and that thinking of it in at least 8 basic directions is an excellent approach -- I started to mention the diagonals in fact, but failed to do that.

Your explaination about right and forward being the toughest direction (for orthodox fighters) is in line with my discussion of the difficulty of "pushing" then the pushing (front) toes are as close to that new destination as anything else -- it's sort of a tractor pull instead of a push. ;)

In that case we are moving FORWARD (and right) but having to move our RIGHT FOOT so it cannot (keep) pushing as it steps and we pivot on the left which is supposed to be pushing.


--
HerbM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

...When considering movement, especially how far we should move, we need to really consider the implications of being in-range or out of range (at it's most simple). I like to think about boxers as operating 'on the edge of range'. It strikes me that all of the top guys hold an inate understanding of where they are in relation to their opponent....to the millimetre! Herb is exactly right to establish the understanding of not moving too far. The reason that I say this is that the difference of being in range and being out of range is inches, maybe the width of a fist is a useful gauge.
...

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Since reading the above I have been thinking about it quite a bit.

I would love to see your expand on this topic, Fran.

If there is anything you can do for a video it would make a great addition to your MyBoxingCoach.com videos since I don't believe there is much -- certainly NOT ENOUGH -- discussion of this elsewhere.

Practically no book nor any video that I have seen goes into this topic.

I am also a student of AMOK! which is primarily centered on knife defense and knife fighting, and this is perhaps THE CRITICAL distinction when facing a knife -- even in AMOK! there could be more discussion and practice for moving so as to move in an out of range.

Tom Sotis (the developer of AMOK!) makes the following assertions:

1. You cannot be invincible
2. You can achieve TEMPORARY INVINCIBILITY

The idea -- as I understand it -- is to achieve a combination of body positions, mutual positions, distance, based on the skills of the combatants so that you are temporarily safe.

There is no way to STAY safe like this except by constantly moving and changing these relationships so as to find NEW positions of safety.

IF a fighter can move into range, get hits, and get out of range (or into a positions from which the other fighter cannot strike back) then victory is certainly achievable and may even be highly predictable.

In knife work you literally live or die by such concerns of distance.

My main style of knife fighting it to arrange it so that my opponent LITERALLY cannot touch/hit/cut me in one beat, but where as soon as he moves I can cut him.

There is a lot of overlap between the knife (held in the front hand) and the jab in boxing -- this was a big part of my decision to take up boxing since we don't have an AMOK! group here locally.

In knife defense you MUST NOT "trade blows" you must instead endeavor to hit your opponent without getting hit yourself.

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HerbM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

On a final point, and relating to Herb's post, don't restrict yourself to four ways of movement. Think of a compass on the ground, and you can move in any direction on that compass, building around the 8 main points. As an orthodox boxer, it's is very difficult to move diagonally right and forward (north east). It feels very unnatural and awkward. The way to get around this awkwardness is to be pragmatic. Seek to move just ahead of east. You are still moving diagonally forward and to the right, but a little more subtle. Mastering sidesteps is very important. Combining sidesteps with slips and rolls successfully is pure gold!!!!

I hope this is of use, and again my apologies for not reading the efforts of other members...it's not like me as I am usually quite thorough about this.

Catch you soon, from this old over-the-hill palooka (for your benefit Scrap)!

Fran

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Great post Fran, thanks for stopping by. Find your videos on your site very helpful.

I just have one question. When moving diagonally right, how do you initiate the movement? Is it by pushing off the back leg and stepping forward at an angle, or by pushing off the left leg and letting the back leg come forward a little as you move right? I personally find going diagonally right to be easier when I push off the left leg. Is that breaking the fundamentals?

the thing being, technicaly the back foot isnt really a trailing foot. It orchestrates most things distance and balance,plus direction. It doesnt trail ;D

Hey ThaiBoxer

Pushing off the left (front) leg is not a problem, and you are not breaking fundamentals as long as you don't allow your weight to go 'over' your front leg i.e. don't let your nose go beyond the line of your front knee (hoping that this makes sense).

Fran