What if Floyd had fought Forrest and Winky that Shane fought at those weights. Would he still be undefeated and saying he was the greatest. Would his legacy be improved even if he lost to them?
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What if Floyd had fought Forrest and Winky that Shane fought at those weights. Would he still be undefeated and saying he was the greatest. Would his legacy be improved even if he lost to them?
PBF vs Winky is just a slow chess match boring fight...Winky's defense was extremely good and he has a good chin. I actually think who wins this match comes down to what gloves they use....if Winky gets his big old ear muffs I think PBF couldn't hurt him with those gloves and Winky's defense would be so tight it would be hard to make a dent.
I think the Vernon Forrest that fought Shane was one of the more dangerous fighters of that era. That big right cross of his was trouble for lots of guys. Before he had his shoulder injury he was very dangerous
Floyd is just to small for those two. It's not that I think that Floyd isn't better than them. Just too small for those styles and attributes.
Floyd + Winky = administration of propofol by a novice: You're 100% guaranteed to fall asleep but you might die in the process.
I think Vernon came back nicely after the injury wasn't an issue anymore. He actually became a fighter I enjoyed watching. It was amazing watching him crack Baldomir and seeing how it had 0 effect on Tata. And the first Mora fight was good (didn't see the 2nd).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
But I think PBF could have beaten the version of Forest that beat Mosley. Shane has this way of looking like he's given up with his body language. I thought he was bedazzled by the cut in the first fight but fought back to barely lose, but in the 2nd it seemed like he knew Forest had his number. He did the same in the 2 Wright fights. I don't think Mosley has anything but a really good A plan whereas PBF can come up with a B, C, D, etc. on the fly.
I think Floyd would have killed Forest with counters and surprise attacks, but Forest's punch 'n clinch action would have made it close. And I think Floyd would have worked to split Wright's guard in a more offensive effort. He wouldn't have wasted shots to the body simply out of fear of breaking a hand on Wink's elbows.
He'd beat Vernon Forrest by a very narrow decision, but there's no way he beats a prime Winky Wright at 154.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Floyd loses both of them...esp to winky. But it certainly wouldn't hurt his legacy, because fighting above your natural weight or optimum weight, historically has only added to their legacy if a fighter won, and always the first defense win that fighter loses...
If arefrom the "you need a jab to beat floyd" school, prime Forest is your man at 147. He could control distance with the jab and drop that wicked right behind it. On of that, as pointed out before, he knew how to use the clinch to good advantage. be a close decision either way.
Prime Winky at 154 is Floyd's worst nightmare. Floyd couldn't hurt him. He would be smaller, weaker, and give up reach. None of Floyd's advantages would matter. He'd be on the end of a jab and straight rights all night. Winky is a combination of bad matchup up and too big.
I think Mayweather beats them both, and before people say I am nuthugging which is inevitable I will state my case.
Why Shane lost: Obviously there were other factors, but the biggest one is that Shane thinking he was the stronger guy in both cases simply didn't box well enough against either. Instead of using intelligent movement and guile, especially against Wright he simply tried to bang away. Against Forest he didn't use his jab hardly at all, he was leaping in from way too far away with big punches, a lot like Berto. Forrest saw everything coming a mile away.
Why Mayweather would win:
Against Wright: Even though WRight was older I think his fight against Bernard is evidence that highly intellectual defensive fighters can take away Wright's arsenal. I think the speed difference would be great enough that it would compensate for the age and size factor between Wright and Hopkins(I think Hopkins was still a little fresher when they met). I think Floyd would stay out of range, lead with a right hand that would sneak through Wright's guard than either move away at an angle or clinch. Once again MOsley's inability to block the right hand and his unwillingness/inability to box moving backwards effectively made him an easy target for Wright who kept him at range with the jab, I think Floyd wait for that jab and stay further away and counter off it all night long. I think Floyd would make this an ugly fight where Wright wouldn't be able to get punches off and he would be frustrated by Floyd's movement all night like he was against Bernard who kept one step ahead of him.
Against Forest: I think Floyd would use his superior speed and boxing skills to outjab Forest and beat him in a way similar to how he beat Oscar, I think it would be a more competitive fight in the middle of hte ring, but that Forest wouldn't be as effective in back Floyd up or at throwing combination like Oscar did. Vernon was a really good A- fighter who had the perfect chemistry to beat Mosley, but he wasn't a truly complete fighter, and I think as the fight progressed Floyd's superior skills would play a bigger a bigger role as he would gradually take over the fight down the stretch.
Wright is truely a great fighter, but both he and Vernon were so effective against Mosley because of how Mosley fought against bigger technical fighters who were quick enough to deal with his speed. He didn't use an intelligent formula to fight either of them, and I think Mosley's style simply wasn't meant for fighting guys who were bigger and stronger than him. The only reason IMO he beat Mayorga and Vargas(at least the first time) is because they were so much slower than him, but even including them he hasn't been effective at all against larger opponents except Margarito. Who was IMO just a taller guy who lacked speed or any sort of strength advantage over Shane.
Teath, all you have to do is look at why Floyd dropped rounds to Oscar to see why Winky would of been an absolute nightmare for Floyd.
Forrest would have been a tougher fight than Oscar because Forrest has great right to go along with the jab. Floyd countered with rights over the jab without fear of a meaningful right hand following behind it. Oscar's right has improved, but it is nothing like Forrest's right cross at it's best.
Don't minimize the size difference. Hopkins was able to get in those right hands because he had size and reach to do it. Wright at 154 was bigger, better fighter than Oscar at 154. Plus, he's a southpaw. Floyd has some success doing the things you talked about, for sure, but it would still end up a clear decision for Winky.
Hopkins wasn't using his height against Winky at all, and Wright was a really good fighter, but not a better one than Oscar, I think they came up pretty even against similar competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
It was Oscar's speed which was superior to Winky's in every facet except maybe one punch handspeed.
As for Forest I agree he would be dangerous for Floyd, but Floyd is great at blocking the right cross his left shoulder, He wouldn't throw after the jab in most cases against Forest unless it was with a jab of his own, he would wait for Forest's one-two then counter with a right hand or move quickly out of the way then out jab/potshot Forest with quick straight punches whereas Mosely was trying to leap in with hooks from way too far out.
Mayweather has never had a problems against height/size, in fact he likes it more because it increases his advantage in speed and he is able shoot his jab to the body easier which sets up everything else.
The two things that Oscar really had that kept Mayweather at bay in many circumstances that these two don't is 1. He's always had great power in his left hook which had the capability of changing a fight with anyone, Forest hit hard but besides the first Mosley fight his power wasn't that impressive, and Winky had thudding power, but couldn't knock anyone out at the top level of hte sport. The other thing is that Oscar was a great combination puncher, he kept Floyd on the ropes by throwing 6-7 punches in a row, and even though they missed thats how Oscar won rounds, without those combinations with Floyd on the ropes Oscar wouldn't have won a round, and he is as fast if not faster than Winky and Forest, and he's around their size, and he employed good defensive skills against Floyd.
I think Mayweather would beat Forrest & that it would be more comfortable than people think. I think Shane could have beaten Forrest, but he fought stupidly in both fights. I think Vernon was an excellent fighter, but I felt Mosley gave those away by not having a plan b in those fights.
Winky would probably beat Floyd, like RozzySean says its a bad style matchup in all senses as well as a distinct size disadvantage. I think it might be competitive enough that Floyd could sneak a debatable SD on the cards, but I think most would see it as a loss.