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1) Jean Marc Mormeck
2) John Ruiz
3) Nikolay Valuev
Yes David you really can 'hold your head up high' if the Klitchsko fights don't go ahead before you hide behind your grand old age of 31 years.
What a joke, he's nothing but a celebrity boxer who's conning the public the same way Ricky Hatton did but on a larger scale. Atleast Ricky did love boxing and had career defining fights.
He is a businessman and long ago realised that the public were mugs. Valuev was a paper champion who should have lost his belt earlier and since then Haye has simply gone for the easiest target for the biggest reward. An ancient Ruiz and a god awful Audley Harrison. Hardly awe inspiring. Sure, Haye can retire right now as a rather wealthy man, but as a great boxer? No, if he doesn't fight a Klit, then he goes down as all smoke and mirrors at HW.
Haye has no way of escaping that no matter how much he tries to delude himself, but just maybe he doesn't care about any of that. He seems to like talking more than fighting anyway.
And Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Lets not make this about Wlad V Haye or it becomes just another slanging match between Lyle and the sensible people.
Lets see this thread for what it is, shite.
In pro boxing, let's face it, the name of the game is how much you make - not how many honours won. - Reg Gutteridge
Wlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
What a shame boxers such as Haye happily embrace this philosophy to the detrement of the sport and its fans. Thank God for Carl Froch and Amir Khan, never thought I'd say that in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I totally agree and it isn't often I have nice things to say about Khan. He does at least fight on a regular basis. Can't knock him for that. Froch is just brilliant. He's really grown on me over the years and that's because he will take on whoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_SimasuWhat a shame boxers such as Haye happily embrace this philosophy to the detrement of the sport and its fans. Thank God for Carl Froch and Amir Khan, never thought I'd say that in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Lets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
It doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
But don't get me wrong, of course I want to see the fight as much as anyone else. I just think Wlad has a far stronger resume that's all.
I disagree. The names you mentioned on Wlad's record are hardly career defining fights. I would also suggest some of those names you mentioned are not better than Valuev or Ruiz. No way is a shot Hasim Rahman a more career defining fight than either of those 2 names. Chambers isn't much either. Chagaev is likely next for Haye so really I'm not seeing how Wlad is so much better. Not one name on his record is considered a more dangerous opponent to him than David Haye. They need each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIt doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
Froch and Khan do exactly the same as Haye and every other boxer on the planet - take the best monetary deal. Simple as that.
Only boxing nerds care about resumes. Haye is a multi-millionaire two weight "world" champion and A-list star in Britain. That is what you call success.
It depends of how you are defining a career defining fight. Those fighters are as good as it gets in HW boxing over the last decade. Not as eye catching as what we saw in the '90's, but what can you do. Chagaev already beat Valuev really (pesky judges) and a 37 year old battle torn retired Ruiz would be beaten by most of those fighters too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnI disagree. The names you mentioned on Wlad's record are hardly career defining fights. I would also suggest some of those names you mentioned are not better than Valuev or Ruiz. No way is a shot Hasim Rahman a more career defining fight than either of those 2 names. Chambers isn't much either. Chagaev is likely next for Haye so really I'm not seeing how Wlad is so much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIt doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
Haye hasn't really done that much at HW and his inactivity goes against him too. Sure, Wlad has been in no megafights per se, but his resume is solid and better than Haye's. You don't really see career defining fights at HW, but this fight has been built on a war of words rather than anything spectacular in the ring. I'm not convinced that Haye is even the 3rd best heavyweight in the world right now, but I am curious to see a Wlad or Vitali fight like anyone else.
Again this isnt about who is better, Haye or Wlad.
Sure Haye loves the attention, but its only recently he's been getting it, not like Amir or Ricky who have had massive followings from day dot. Anyone who thinks has has conned his way into the limelight is a prick.