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Shaky Greek Cabinet Backs Shock Referendum - Yahoo!
So Greece is giving it's citizenry the choice as to how its financial future will be determined. Whilst the western media is chastising the Greeks for having the audacity to show a true democratic lead, I on the other hand salute them.
Well done, Greece. Finally getting it right!
So are you of the opinion that your average person knows whats best for the economy? It sounds nice but I have no idea what to make of it myself; given the nature of their public sector and what seems to be an obsession with going on strike and demanding Gov't intervention over any and every financial dispute it seems like they kind of want it boths ways and that this could be a very bad move. Not pretending to have a clue though.
Yes please don't pretend, as you don't by any means have a clue. The Govt has gotten the whole place intot the mess its in, so YES let the people vote---the "average" person as you call them. What arrogance! The Govt went along with the banks' bad bets, and now the "average" person should bail them out? You creep ME out, buddy. Please study a few years about how the IMF and central banks work together with offshore banks and hedge-funds to create the mess we are all in. Also learn a bit about magnanimity and poise, seeing as you are rudely lacking both of those virtues.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
I am of the opinion that austerity and blaming citizens for the crisis was in no way fair nor just. Now to be given the actual opportunity to reject the impositions of the global financiers is a good thing. Greece will suffer hardship no matter what happens, but to be freed from the shackles of international finance is a starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
The elite don't really know what is good for the economy either, but they are very good at lining their own pockets and the pockets of those that they share company with.
This is a brave and courageous move.
For a decent all round read into the US and its puppet the IMF I would recommend that everyone read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine. The whole use of disasters both man made and natural has long been a tool used to implement economic shock measures. From South America, to Russia, to the western states today the 'shock' doctors are hard at work. If ordinary people have the chance to reject their impositions then so they should.
Seemingly the only way to overcome it in the west is through a massive expansion of the protest movement and maybe even through it's radicalization as we have seen recently in Greece.
What, you ain't blaming the Mafia for this?
You'r slipping miles.
There are two things that really frustrate me about Greece at the moment, and this decision is really a smokescreen of democracy, as both option will lead the country into decades of poverty.
a) This is a massively cowardly decision on behalf of the politicians of the country. They have been lax in collecting the taxes, and have colluded to cover up the gaps that were appearing in their balance sheets. This is their way of washing their hands of any responsibility for the decision, and simply saying "we let the people decide". They're letting them decide between two very shitty options in order to save their political skins, as any government making the choice, whichever way they go, would be a political party that would never be seen or heard from again.
b) As I look at it, they're putting the choice to the Greek people of either defaulting on the debt, and becoming an international pariah through that which very few countries will want to do business with. This I feel is the more likely popular vote, as it will give them in the short term relief from their debts, and will let the benefits/pensions etc go on for a little longer before the inevitable collapse.
The second choice is that of facing up to the situation, negotiating a deal as well as they can, maybe even just a few cents in the Euro repayment, pulling together as a country and trying to make sure that in 20 years Greece still has a part to play in international politics and trade.
How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.
Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.
Understatement of the year. The PRESS-titutes as I call them---i.e. mainstream media, nightly news, govt. shills who write what they are TOLD to write--like to put the blame on the "little guy"---"oh its those low-income idiots who overextended themse4lves/took on mortgages they knew they couldnt afford" etc. Yeah that accounts for about half a trillion dollars I'll admit, but the amount of debt from the housing and mortgage bubbles which were artificially inflated through "collateralized debt obligations", "mortgage-backed black pools" and "credit default swaps" totals between (according to the White House Budgetary Office's OWN cooked figures) somewhere between 9 TRILLION and 12 TRILLION dollars. So who's got the Lion's Share of the blame? Please, people, stop going for the mainstream media's demonizing the "man on the street" and see the forest for the trees.Quote:
and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people
Oh, so you'd be in favor of privatizing Social Security then?Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbustYes please don't pretend, as you don't by any means have a clue. The Govt has gotten the whole place intot the mess its in, so YES let the people vote---the "average" person as you call them. What arrogance! The Govt went along with the banks' bad bets, and now the "average" person should bail them out? You creep ME out, buddy. Please study a few years about how the IMF and central banks work together with offshore banks and hedge-funds to create the mess we are all in. Also learn a bit about magnanimity and poise, seeing as you are rudely lacking both of those virtues.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesHow is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.
Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.
Sorry Miles but you're off on that one. Greece has begged Europe to give them gazillions of dollars on the European's blanket to help them. Most didn't want to continue to invest billions to help them as they know they wouldn't see this money back. Now that they have these billions, what they are saying is:"fuck you all who give us money, we'll play it by our own". It's like if you lend me 5000 to get me out of troubles, that we take an agreement about how I should repay you (including offering a doubtful mortgage onmy house that nobody elses wanted to take) and all of a sudden, I tell you "well, I'll do my things Miles, leave me alone, I know how to solve my problem and to save my skin, I'll pay you back onmy own terms, not what we did agree".
Second, the Greece is in trouble for years because of their inaptitude to tax. There is massive reports of frauds and corruption over the years and most high middle class to high class citizen have,t paid the third of what they should have... in matter of taxes. A little very funny example of how things are played in Greece; They once looked at the number of people who did declare swimming pool in Athena and the number was ludicrously slow. SO... they took satellite images and SURPRISE, there was 15 to 20 more swimming pools in the satellite than what declared. They talked about that on TV and when they did a second scan a few months later, most people had covered their pools with some fabric to hide it from the satellite.
The Prime Mininster of Greece is an ass who wants the butter and the butter's bread, especially considering that many took against their will the Countries' bonds knowing it was worth nothing.
BIG portion of the Greek economy is tourism, they joined the euro, all the prices went up, tourism went down, businesses closed. Simple.
Whenever I've been to Greece the people have been moaning saying they should never have joined the euro. I agree.
If the 'austerity measures' are going to be paid for by the people then of course they should have a say.
We're having to pay for the fuck up the bankers/government has made - where's our vote on that? Forget the general election bollocks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Unfortunately, the discussion has been open a long time, and a lot of bad decisions have already been made without consulting the people of Greece to get them to this position. Ask the man on the street there how many times they have been consulted on the previous decisions. Fuck up #1....no. Fuck up #2....no. Fuck up #3....no. etc.
The reason its a smokescreen is that the PM is up against the wall, and whichever way he chooses to go, he's going to get a massive amount of flak that will almost certainly end his political career. He isn't calling a referendum out of a desire to give people a voice. He's not calling it because it is in the name of democracy. He's calling it in a cowardly act to try and avoid making a decision that every other decision he's made without consultation has led to. It is a sleazy sly way of giving the appearance of self-control and democracy, while trying to avoid taking the responsibility.
And in terms of the consequences for Greece, choosing not to repay the loans isn't a cure all. They won't be allowed to stay in the Euro, for a start. Thus they'll be sent back to the Drachma. If we think we've got bad inflation, wait till Greece start seeing their currency devalued, as the balance of imports will be significantly more than the balance of exports. Those Greek corporations that will still want to trade internationally will find it difficult to do so, because their own costs within Greece will be spiralling with double-digit inflation, they'll probably be forced to use the Euro as a defacto currency simply for something stable to trade with, but many of those corporations will either leave Greece, or be seriously struggling themselves.
The fact is that the PM is giving two options to the people that will likely lead to very similar results. A crippled state where austerity is going to become the norm for decades to come.
It is a cowardly decision by the Greek politicians who have shown themselves to be a pretty spineless, corrupt bunch for the last couple of decades.
However, to expect the general public to understand the ramifications of international monetary policy, and to make the right decision, is probably expecting too much. This is a population who have grown used to paying bribes, underdeclaring tax, getting EU subsidies for a generation and retiring on a generous pension at 50.
Complete banana republic, I'm afraid.
But that's a bit hypocrite because prior to the referendum,Greeks were massively in favor of joining the European Union. Even shadier, they got caught hand in the jar for false books reports about their finance but Most european leaders decided to turn a blind eye on it. BEcause of that falsification, according to the article 25 of the Lisboa treaty (if I am correct), they would have (Europa) the right to kick off Greece off the union, to ask them to straighten their finance, to give new clean sheets about it and to then oin back once it's all done but they chose not to to give a "strong face" to the European image. It kind of backfired miserably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy