Well done, Greece!

[Gandalf]

There are two things that really frustrate me about Greece at the moment, and this decision is really a smokescreen of democracy, as both option will lead the country into decades of poverty.

a) This is a massively cowardly decision on behalf of the politicians of the country. They have been lax in collecting the taxes, and have colluded to cover up the gaps that were appearing in their balance sheets. This is their way of washing their hands of any responsibility for the decision, and simply saying "we let the people decide". They're letting them decide between two very shitty options in order to save their political skins, as any government making the choice, whichever way they go, would be a political party that would never be seen or heard from again.

b) As I look at it, they're putting the choice to the Greek people of either defaulting on the debt, and becoming an international pariah through that which very few countries will want to do business with. This I feel is the more likely popular vote, as it will give them in the short term relief from their debts, and will let the benefits/pensions etc go on for a little longer before the inevitable collapse.
The second choice is that of facing up to the situation, negotiating a deal as well as they can, maybe even just a few cents in the Euro repayment, pulling together as a country and trying to make sure that in 20 years Greece still has a part to play in international politics and trade.

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

[brocktonblockbust]

and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people

Understatement of the year. The PRESS-titutes as I call them---i.e. mainstream media, nightly news, govt. shills who write what they are TOLD to write--like to put the blame on the "little guy"---"oh its those low-income idiots who overextended themse4lves/took on mortgages they knew they couldnt afford" etc. Yeah that accounts for about half a trillion dollars I'll admit, but the amount of debt from the housing and mortgage bubbles which were artificially inflated through "collateralized debt obligations", "mortgage-backed black pools" and "credit default swaps" totals between (according to the White House Budgetary Office's OWN cooked figures) somewhere between 9 TRILLION and 12 TRILLION dollars. So who's got the Lion's Share of the blame? Please, people, stop going for the mainstream media's demonizing the "man on the street" and see the forest for the trees.

[Nameless]

There are two things that really frustrate me about Greece at the moment, and this decision is really a smokescreen of democracy, as both option will lead the country into decades of poverty.

a) This is a massively cowardly decision on behalf of the politicians of the country. They have been lax in collecting the taxes, and have colluded to cover up the gaps that were appearing in their balance sheets. This is their way of washing their hands of any responsibility for the decision, and simply saying "we let the people decide". They're letting them decide between two very shitty options in order to save their political skins, as any government making the choice, whichever way they go, would be a political party that would never be seen or heard from again.

b) As I look at it, they're putting the choice to the Greek people of either defaulting on the debt, and becoming an international pariah through that which very few countries will want to do business with. This I feel is the more likely popular vote, as it will give them in the short term relief from their debts, and will let the benefits/pensions etc go on for a little longer before the inevitable collapse.
The second choice is that of facing up to the situation, negotiating a deal as well as they can, maybe even just a few cents in the Euro repayment, pulling together as a country and trying to make sure that in 20 years Greece still has a part to play in international politics and trade.

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Sorry Miles but you're off on that one. Greece has begged Europe to give them gazillions of dollars on the European's blanket to help them. Most didn't want to continue to invest billions to help them as they know they wouldn't see this money back. Now that they have these billions, what they are saying is:"fuck you all who give us money, we'll play it by our own". It's like if you lend me 5000 to get me out of troubles, that we take an agreement about how I should repay you (including offering a doubtful mortgage onmy house that nobody elses wanted to take) and all of a sudden, I tell you "well, I'll do my things Miles, leave me alone, I know how to solve my problem and to save my skin, I'll pay you back onmy own terms, not what we did agree".
Second, the Greece is in trouble for years because of their inaptitude to tax. There is massive reports of frauds and corruption over the years and most high middle class to high class citizen have,t paid the third of what they should have... in matter of taxes. A little very funny example of how things are played in Greece; They once looked at the number of people who did declare swimming pool in Athena and the number was ludicrously slow. SO... they took satellite images and SURPRISE, there was 15 to 20 more swimming pools in the satellite than what declared. They talked about that on TV and when they did a second scan a few months later, most people had covered their pools with some fabric to hide it from the satellite.

The Prime Mininster of Greece is an ass who wants the butter and the butter's bread, especially considering that many took against their will the Countries' bonds knowing it was worth nothing.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

BIG portion of the Greek economy is tourism, they joined the euro, all the prices went up, tourism went down, businesses closed. Simple.

Whenever I've been to Greece the people have been moaning saying they should never have joined the euro. I agree.

If the 'austerity measures' are going to be paid for by the people then of course they should have a say.

We're having to pay for the fuck up the bankers/government has made - where's our vote on that? Forget the general election bollocks.

[Nameless]

BIG portion of the Greek economy is tourism, they joined the euro, all the prices went up, tourism went down, businesses closed. Simple.

Whenever I've been to Greece the people have been moaning saying they should never have joined the euro. I agree.

If the 'austerity measures' are going to be paid for by the people then of course they should have a say.

We're having to pay for the fuck up the bankers/government has made - where's our vote on that? Forget the general election bollocks.

But that's a bit hypocrite because prior to the referendum,Greeks were massively in favor of joining the European Union. Even shadier, they got caught hand in the jar for false books reports about their finance but Most european leaders decided to turn a blind eye on it. BEcause of that falsification, according to the article 25 of the Lisboa treaty (if I am correct), they would have (Europa) the right to kick off Greece off the union, to ask them to straighten their finance, to give new clean sheets about it and to then oin back once it's all done but they chose not to to give a "strong face" to the European image. It kind of backfired miserably.

[Gandalf]

There are two things that really frustrate me about Greece at the moment, and this decision is really a smokescreen of democracy, as both option will lead the country into decades of poverty.

a) This is a massively cowardly decision on behalf of the politicians of the country. They have been lax in collecting the taxes, and have colluded to cover up the gaps that were appearing in their balance sheets. This is their way of washing their hands of any responsibility for the decision, and simply saying "we let the people decide". They're letting them decide between two very shitty options in order to save their political skins, as any government making the choice, whichever way they go, would be a political party that would never be seen or heard from again.

b) As I look at it, they're putting the choice to the Greek people of either defaulting on the debt, and becoming an international pariah through that which very few countries will want to do business with. This I feel is the more likely popular vote, as it will give them in the short term relief from their debts, and will let the benefits/pensions etc go on for a little longer before the inevitable collapse.
The second choice is that of facing up to the situation, negotiating a deal as well as they can, maybe even just a few cents in the Euro repayment, pulling together as a country and trying to make sure that in 20 years Greece still has a part to play in international politics and trade.

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Sorry Miles but you're off on that one. Greece has begged Europe to give them gazillions of dollars on the European's blanket to help them. Most didn't want to continue to invest billions to help them as they know they wouldn't see this money back. Now that they have these billions, what they are saying is:"fuck you all who give us money, we'll play it by our own". It's like if you lend me 5000 to get me out of troubles, that we take an agreement about how I should repay you (including offering a doubtful mortgage onmy house that nobody elses wanted to take) and all of a sudden, I tell you "well, I'll do my things Miles, leave me alone, I know how to solve my problem and to save my skin, I'll pay you back onmy own terms, not what we did agree".
Second, the Greece is in trouble for years because of their inaptitude to tax. There is massive reports of frauds and corruption over the years and most high middle class to high class citizen have,t paid the third of what they should have... in matter of taxes. A little very funny example of how things are played in Greece; They once looked at the number of people who did declare swimming pool in Athena and the number was ludicrously slow. SO... they took satellite images and SURPRISE, there was 15 to 20 more swimming pools in the satellite than what declared. They talked about that on TV and when they did a second scan a few months later, most people had covered their pools with some fabric to hide it from the satellite.

The Prime Mininster of Greece is an ass who wants the butter and the butter's bread, especially considering that many took against their will the Countries' bonds knowing it was worth nothing.

I don't see how I am off on this at all.

Greece was given loans that it could clearly never pay back. It manipulated data to get into the EU.

But how is this the responsibility of the Greek people?

The elite fucked up with their Euro cravings, the financiers gave out dodgy loans without doing sufficient checks and eventually it gets out of control. And so you default and learn from your mistakes. Everyone becomes much wiser as a consequence.

You don't ask the Greek people to live in servitude for much of the 21st century.

[brocktonblockbust]

definition of capitalism is you rise and fall on your own merits. if you go bankrupt/default, someone else will move in to take your place, that's the free market. Since when did capitalist govts get involved in bailing out the "too big to fail"? that is fascism=the merger of state and corporate powers, govt bailing out its cronies who are not "too big to JAIL"!

[Nameless]

There are two things that really frustrate me about Greece at the moment, and this decision is really a smokescreen of democracy, as both option will lead the country into decades of poverty.

a) This is a massively cowardly decision on behalf of the politicians of the country. They have been lax in collecting the taxes, and have colluded to cover up the gaps that were appearing in their balance sheets. This is their way of washing their hands of any responsibility for the decision, and simply saying "we let the people decide". They're letting them decide between two very shitty options in order to save their political skins, as any government making the choice, whichever way they go, would be a political party that would never be seen or heard from again.

b) As I look at it, they're putting the choice to the Greek people of either defaulting on the debt, and becoming an international pariah through that which very few countries will want to do business with. This I feel is the more likely popular vote, as it will give them in the short term relief from their debts, and will let the benefits/pensions etc go on for a little longer before the inevitable collapse.
The second choice is that of facing up to the situation, negotiating a deal as well as they can, maybe even just a few cents in the Euro repayment, pulling together as a country and trying to make sure that in 20 years Greece still has a part to play in international politics and trade.

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Sorry Miles but you're off on that one. Greece has begged Europe to give them gazillions of dollars on the European's blanket to help them. Most didn't want to continue to invest billions to help them as they know they wouldn't see this money back. Now that they have these billions, what they are saying is:"fuck you all who give us money, we'll play it by our own". It's like if you lend me 5000 to get me out of troubles, that we take an agreement about how I should repay you (including offering a doubtful mortgage onmy house that nobody elses wanted to take) and all of a sudden, I tell you "well, I'll do my things Miles, leave me alone, I know how to solve my problem and to save my skin, I'll pay you back onmy own terms, not what we did agree".
Second, the Greece is in trouble for years because of their inaptitude to tax. There is massive reports of frauds and corruption over the years and most high middle class to high class citizen have,t paid the third of what they should have... in matter of taxes. A little very funny example of how things are played in Greece; They once looked at the number of people who did declare swimming pool in Athena and the number was ludicrously slow. SO... they took satellite images and SURPRISE, there was 15 to 20 more swimming pools in the satellite than what declared. They talked about that on TV and when they did a second scan a few months later, most people had covered their pools with some fabric to hide it from the satellite.

The Prime Mininster of Greece is an ass who wants the butter and the butter's bread, especially considering that many took against their will the Countries' bonds knowing it was worth nothing.

I don't see how I am off on this at all.

Greece was given loans that it could clearly never pay back. It manipulated data to get into the EU.

But how is this the responsibility of the Greek people?

The elite fucked up with their Euro cravings, the financiers gave out dodgy loans without doing sufficient checks and eventually it gets out of control. And so you default and learn from your mistakes. Everyone becomes much wiser as a consequence.

You don't ask the Greek people to live in servitude for much of the 21st century.

No you don't get it;

Greeks people wanted to come into the European Union, their political men as well. They did trick their books to get in and suck off money off Europe and now they want to survive with this money and pay it back if they decide to do so, not a very nice thing, you will agree with me. Furthmore, Greeks has a high problem of taxation as Rhum said, for a long time now, most rich and even upper middle class haven't paid in years what they should have and now it would be ok to say "thanks for your money Europe, now we don't care, so long?"

It doesn't make sense..

[Gandalf]

It is the fault of the EU though, they allowed Greece in without doing thorough homework. It is common knowledge that Greece cooked the books to gain membership. I am not justifying that behaviour, but if you are going to give benefits then you need thorough background checks. If that isn't done sufficiently then you cannot blame the one owing money for eventually being unable to pay it back. It is commonsense.

Anyway, it seems the referendum is off and the IMF incorporated is going to punish Greece for the the rest of this century and beyond. God help the people of Greece. They are going to suffer horribly and be enslaved.

[brocktonblockbust]

Greece has been attacked by Zombie Banks and Hedge Fund Hyenas. Its the Anglo-American Multinationalists.

[superheavyrhun]

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Unfortunately, the discussion has been open a long time, and a lot of bad decisions have already been made without consulting the people of Greece to get them to this position. Ask the man on the street there how many times they have been consulted on the previous decisions. Fuck up #1....no. Fuck up #2....no. Fuck up #3....no. etc.

The reason its a smokescreen is that the PM is up against the wall, and whichever way he chooses to go, he's going to get a massive amount of flak that will almost certainly end his political career. He isn't calling a referendum out of a desire to give people a voice. He's not calling it because it is in the name of democracy. He's calling it in a cowardly act to try and avoid making a decision that every other decision he's made without consultation has led to. It is a sleazy sly way of giving the appearance of self-control and democracy, while trying to avoid taking the responsibility.

And in terms of the consequences for Greece, choosing not to repay the loans isn't a cure all. They won't be allowed to stay in the Euro, for a start. Thus they'll be sent back to the Drachma. If we think we've got bad inflation, wait till Greece start seeing their currency devalued, as the balance of imports will be significantly more than the balance of exports. Those Greek corporations that will still want to trade internationally will find it difficult to do so, because their own costs within Greece will be spiralling with double-digit inflation, they'll probably be forced to use the Euro as a defacto currency simply for something stable to trade with, but many of those corporations will either leave Greece, or be seriously struggling themselves.

The fact is that the PM is giving two options to the people that will likely lead to very similar results. A crippled state where austerity is going to become the norm for decades to come.

[X]

It is a cowardly decision by the Greek politicians who have shown themselves to be a pretty spineless, corrupt bunch for the last couple of decades.

However, to expect the general public to understand the ramifications of international monetary policy, and to make the right decision, is probably expecting too much. This is a population who have grown used to paying bribes, underdeclaring tax, getting EU subsidies for a generation and retiring on a generous pension at 50.

Complete banana republic, I'm afraid.

[Gandalf]

How is a referendum a smokescreen of democracy? What we have in our countries are smokescreens. Bankers massively increase national debt and then people pay in the form of austerity. No prosecutions for fraud, no new regulations in place to control the industry etc. That is a smokescreen of democracy. A referendum is opening the discussion in a truly democratic way.

Of course defaulting will make Greece a pariah in terms of international lending and predatory economic practices, but people will still trade with Greek corporations that have something to offer. And if we are to criticize the Greek ability to collect taxes, then we need to go back to why Greece was allowed to join the EU in the first place. People turned a blind eye to a country that has never really had control over those things. It's pretty difficult when the country is is essentially a massive collection of islands.

Greece cannot afford to pay back the debt and considering a large part of it was not the responsibility of the Greek people they should have the choice to shun it and that is what I believe they will do and rightly so. A fresh start and a lesson duly earned. Not 30 years of punishment and making the children pay just to make international finance richer having made stupid loans.

Unfortunately, the discussion has been open a long time, and a lot of bad decisions have already been made without consulting the people of Greece to get them to this position. Ask the man on the street there how many times they have been consulted on the previous decisions. Fuck up #1....no. Fuck up #2....no. Fuck up #3....no. etc.

The reason its a smokescreen is that the PM is up against the wall, and whichever way he chooses to go, he's going to get a massive amount of flak that will almost certainly end his political career. He isn't calling a referendum out of a desire to give people a voice. He's not calling it because it is in the name of democracy. He's calling it in a cowardly act to try and avoid making a decision that every other decision he's made without consultation has led to. It is a sleazy sly way of giving the appearance of self-control and democracy, while trying to avoid taking the responsibility.

And in terms of the consequences for Greece, choosing not to repay the loans isn't a cure all. They won't be allowed to stay in the Euro, for a start. Thus they'll be sent back to the Drachma. If we think we've got bad inflation, wait till Greece start seeing their currency devalued, as the balance of imports will be significantly more than the balance of exports. Those Greek corporations that will still want to trade internationally will find it difficult to do so, because their own costs within Greece will be spiralling with double-digit inflation, they'll probably be forced to use the Euro as a defacto currency simply for something stable to trade with, but many of those corporations will either leave Greece, or be seriously struggling themselves.

The fact is that the PM is giving two options to the people that will likely lead to very similar results. A crippled state where austerity is going to become the norm for decades to come.

Fair post with some fair points made. But if a nation is unable to pay back loans then they have no option but to default. It isn't going to be pretty either way, but to finally walk away and attempt to start again without the draconian iron fist of the IMF hanging over them is clearly preferable. When a nation goes broke there is always going to be hardship and it is a choice of hardship on your own terms or hardship on the terms of the IMF. It is time for more nations to snub their noses at the Friedman economics brutality of the IMF.

[X]

I've no sympathy for the Greeks whatsover: they are the ones who voted in successive corrupt governments because it was in their short term interests, it is they who are the ones blatantly dodging tax, it is they who never questioned where the sudden avalanche of money was coming from, and it is they who somehow think that it is not right to repay one's debts.

People get the leaders they deserve, and I - for one - would be happier to see the Greeks live in servitude for a few years, rather than me doing so to repay their stupidity and greed.

So there.

[Gandalf]

I've no sympathy for the Greeks whatsover: they are the ones who voted in successive corrupt governments because it was in their short term interests, it is they who are the ones blatantly dodging tax, it is they who never questioned where the sudden avalanche of money was coming from, and it is they who somehow think that it is not right to repay one's debts.

People get the leaders they deserve, and I - for one - would be happier to see the Greeks live in servitude for a few years, rather than me doing so to repay their stupidity and greed.

So there.

You get the leaders you deserve? What if none of them ever represent the interests of the people themselves?

Does Britain really deserve a Tory/Lib Dem alliance? They didn't vote for it. And yet we have austerity and a refusal to challenge the banking system.

No, I disagree with you. Voting is no longer voting for the leaders you deserve. The fix is well and truly in. There is no alternative.