Printable View
When he threw hook punches he seemed to like the hook punch in which the arm was stretched out at an angle much larger than 90 degrees.
I have been told that the best hook punchers always bend their elbows/ arms at a 90 dgree right angle.
Well Sugar Ray Robinson was a master boxer so whos right?
It's a different kind of hook which when done right is just as effective, if not more so, than the conventional hook which makes use of the 90 degree angle. The kind of hook that you're talking about could never be done effectively moving backwards because you need to be close to your opponent or, alternatively, moving forward to execute it properly. So having said that I think this video is a better illustration of why he liked to use that hook than any set of words I could assemble in an attempt to articulate the reason:Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-EWPlSHxek
This kind of hook makes use not just of the hip but of the wrist in the final part of the movement to create a whip-like action so that the power penetrates and is transferred in one spot, rather than being driven through the target. This makes it ideal for hitting pressure points, and if you notice on that video he catches Fullmer right on the hinge of the jaw - if he caught him a little higher or a little further down the chin he probably would have gotten up. This is a precision hook which can be thrown from the hip and from strange angles with great speed - it's a lot easier to disguise than a normal hook, where you see a lot of guys clenching the ground or even ducking down to anchor their weight and accentuate the hip movement to create as much force as possible. The idea is not to cause concussion through a sharp rotation of the head but to target pressure points (here the hinge of the jaw but also the temple - there are other places to strike with an open hand or with the knuckles but obviously this is impossible with gloves on) which will overload the nervous system and cause incapacitation and/or loss of consciousness. You're also less likely to hurt your hand this way because your fingers are supported at a 90 degree angle and by both the fingers and the intersection between the palm and the fingers. Furthermore, because this technique relies on relaxation and speed you use less energy in the execution than if you're winding up a hook and what is more there is zero feedback from the target, i.e. there is no strain absorbed by your hand/wrist/shoulder - I realise this might sound a bit of a strange concept so I dug up this old video of Bruce Lee casting for the Green Hornet back in the day:
LiveLeak.com - bruce lee's audition for the green hornet 1964
Skip to 2:21 and listen to what Bruce has to say about the difference between a 'Karate' punch and a 'Gung Fu' punch - this is the difference between a conventional hook in boxing and the kind Sugar Ray often used and he explains the concept far better than I have :-X But if you listen to what he says I believe we are driving at the same thing - it's about fluidity and economy of movement. While the conventional hook makes use of the generation of maximum force which is then applied over a broader surface area to mechanically twist the head causing the brain to shake and bounce against the inside of the skull, thereby causing incapacitation, the hook Robinson used targets the nervous system directly with perhaps slightly less force but delivered through a smaller surface area. If you have studied vital point striking to any degree you'll know exactly what I'm talking about - if you haven't and you're interested in the mechanics of fighting it's definitely something you should look into (it's essentially acupuncture in reverse, and actually there's some evidence to suggest the two systems were developed in tandem, but that's for another day cos' I'm going off on a tangent :-X).
So in answer to your question, I personally feel that Robinson's unusual use of the hook is just one of the reasons why he exceeded so many of his peers throughout his career (not that I'm suggesting he was the first to use it). That doesn't mean to say that other great boxers haven't made fantastic use of a more conventional hook, but for me this kind of hook is technically and strategically superior.
Because SRR understood marketing. You have to be special to be able to sell wellQuote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF
Wow that's really amazing knowledge you have there thankyou so much for sharing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by SRRIt's a different kind of hook which when done right is just as effective, if not more so, than the conventional hook which makes use of the 90 degree angle. The kind of hook that you're talking about could never be done effectively moving backwards because you need to be close to your opponent or, alternatively, moving forward to execute it properly. So having said that I think this video is a better illustration of why he liked to use that hook than any set of words I could assemble in an attempt to articulate the reason:Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-EWPlSHxek
This kind of hook makes use not just of the hip but of the wrist in the final part of the movement to create a whip-like action so that the power penetrates and is transferred in one spot, rather than being driven through the target. This makes it ideal for hitting pressure points, and if you notice on that video he catches Fullmer right on the hinge of the jaw - if he caught him a little higher or a little further down the chin he probably would have gotten up. This is a precision hook which can be thrown from the hip and from strange angles with great speed - it's a lot easier to disguise than a normal hook, where you see a lot of guys clenching the ground or even ducking down to anchor their weight and accentuate the hip movement to create as much force as possible. The idea is not to cause concussion through a sharp rotation of the head but to target pressure points (here the hinge of the jaw but also the temple - there are other places to strike with an open hand or with the knuckles but obviously this is impossible with gloves on) which will overload the nervous system and cause incapacitation and/or loss of consciousness. You're also less likely to hurt your hand this way because your fingers are supported at a 90 degree angle and by both the fingers and the intersection between the palm and the fingers. Furthermore, because this technique relies on relaxation and speed you use less energy in the execution than if you're winding up a hook and what is more there is zero feedback from the target, i.e. there is no strain absorbed by your hand/wrist/shoulder - I realise this might sound a bit of a strange concept so I dug up this old video of Bruce Lee casting for the Green Hornet back in the day:
LiveLeak.com - bruce lee's audition for the green hornet 1964
Skip to 2:21 and listen to what Bruce has to say about the difference between a 'Karate' punch and a 'Gung Fu' punch - this is the difference between a conventional hook in boxing and the kind Sugar Ray often used and he explains the concept far better than I have :-X But if you listen to what he says I believe we are driving at the same thing - it's about fluidity and economy of movement. While the conventional hook makes use of the generation of maximum force which is then applied over a broader surface area to mechanically twist the head causing the brain to shake and bounce against the inside of the skull, thereby causing incapacitation, the hook Robinson used targets the nervous system directly with perhaps slightly less force but delivered through a smaller surface area. If you have studied vital point striking to any degree you'll know exactly what I'm talking about - if you haven't and you're interested in the mechanics of fighting it's definitely something you should look into (it's essentially acupuncture in reverse, and actually there's some evidence to suggest the two systems were developed in tandem, but that's for another day cos' I'm going off on a tangent :-X).
So in answer to your question, I personally feel that Robinson's unusual use of the hook is just one of the reasons why he exceeded so many of his peers throughout his career (not that I'm suggesting he was the first to use it). That doesn't mean to say that other great boxers haven't made fantastic use of a more conventional hook, but for me this kind of hook is technically and strategically superior.
Ive asked about the long hook many times no one gave an answer anywhere near as good as yours.
I really appreciate it bro!
:) Time to hit the heavy bag!
Oh and you explained it really well, I understand completely what you mean its very hard to communicate but you did an ace job!
Yeah for sure. He fully sold him a left to the liver.Quote:
Originally Posted by NVSeminBecause SRR understood marketing. You have to be special to be able to sell wellQuote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF
You're quite welcome mate - I think you raised a very interesting point, and it's really only when you start looking at it from a martial arts perspective that it becomes clear because the range in boxing is completely different. I think a lot of people tend to think of boxing as being unique in the sense that it has a specific set of rules and therefore systems of fighting have developed within the context of those rules, and as a result sometimes it can be forgotten that aspects of other martial arts translate into boxing as they do into most combat sports. Yet, if you look back at some of the older fighters you will notice plenty of tricks inspired by other martial arts. For example, Willie Pep used to use his arms to tie people up and turn them away from him to stop his opponents working inside and force them to constantly close the gap from range so he could intercept them on the way in, adding their momentum to the power of his own punches, which is not something you really learn in a boxing gym but is part of many systems of grappling and more wholistic martial arts like Kung Fu and Karate.Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF
Now explain some of Bruce Lee's MMA moves. :)
Not sure if you're serious? But if people want to talk about Bruce Lee and MMA it might make an interesting topic for discussion, although he didn't do MMA per se, even though many of the current generation of mixed martial artists consider him to be one of the forefathers of the sport. He did, however, experiment with and research many different martial arts and then make an attempt to synthesise what he had learned over 15-20 years of training into a single system of fighting, known as Jeet Kune Do, or, translated, 'Way of the Intercepting Fist', although he denied that it was really a system of fighting at all and preferred to think of it as a way of enabling people to express themselves through the medium of their bodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I believe what he was referring to is the transcendence you experience when you are finally able to free yourself of any preconceived notions of how you should fight or react in particular circumstances, and simply impose your character on your opponent, reacting naturally to their movements rather than in the way you believe you should, or your instructor believes that you should. This doesn't mean that you should not make use of the foundations of a given style, but simply that you do not follow a set pattern and you do not, necessarily, adhere to classical applications of techniques. In those moments you are free of styles, free of the restrictions of sets of rules that force you into particular patterns of behaviour; you are expressing yourself uniquely, extemporaneously, like a poet in nature, moved by his surroundings to pen a poem, the inspiration for which fades out of existence almost before he has time to capture it in words. This is what Bruce is getting at with his constant references to 'water' as being the ultimate metaphor for a martial artist - he is referring to a substance which cannot be 'broken', always finds and exploits a weakness and does so in the most flowing, effortless fashion. So in this context Jeet Kune Do is really a philosophy which enables those who subscribe to it to understand what they are striving for and how to achieve it, because you can never truly fit a person into a style, but you can fit a style into a person. What they go on to do with that style is entirely up to them and will depend on the particular circumstances, like a dancer responding to the rhythmic cues of different pieces of music; there is no set choreography, it is merely the continuous honest expression of oneself at a given moment in time.
Cuz he could get away with it....