What would you say are some examples of old-school techniques? I know the shoulder roll is one, but I would also say the peek-a-boo stance is another.
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What would you say are some examples of old-school techniques? I know the shoulder roll is one, but I would also say the peek-a-boo stance is another.
Many different forms of physical manipulation - the more subtle kind.
For example, Jack Johnson used to put his mitts on a fights biceps to stop them from moving their arms. Things like that. Floyd seems to have made 'head control' (see Ward and Crawford) the cool thing to do, maybe that was an older art?
Duran had something about him, in that sense. Misdirection etc... Would be lost on most fighters these days. most wouldn't even 'register' that sort of stuff.
Chopping wood with an axe
Chasing a chicken
Bernard Hopkins used the Jersey Joe Walcott trick of walking away at an angle and then throwing the lead right as the opponent follows. Barney Ross was adept at keeping opponents off balance and missing by pushing/tapping them on the shoulders/hips before and in between punches. Georgie Benton used to teach guys how to step on the opponents instep to slow them down/off. James Toney's shoulder to shoulder and all around infighting.
It's interesting that the 'old' era fighters seem to have had much better infighting and overall technical abilities. A lot of pro fighters these days don't seem to get far passed the fundamentals (I'm not going to go into the hows and whys because it would start something that would never be finished) at least in terms of what they actually employ come fight night. You mention Duran, his in fighting was exceptional, and I think a lot of what we're talking about, aside from specific techniques handed down from one generation to the next, or learned from analysis of old tape, is this concept of 'feeling' or proprioception/kinaesthetic awareness. It's something which is prominent in the training methods of a lot of martial arts but I have yet to see it taught explicitly in a boxing gym. It tends to be something people either do or do not pick up through sparring, and so it's no surprise that experienced amateurs (in terms of modern day fighters) are generally the ones you see exhibiting these kinds of skills. It's a shame we don't see it more often: use of the shoulders, elbows, forearms, grappling, trapping of the arms, pulling/leading by the elbow. Footwork is the other key dimension in boxing which seems much neglected nowadays, but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Here is a nice little video analysing the way in which Willie Pep used some of these subtler techniques. Perhaps if anyone finds any other videos showing the 'old school' techniques of some of the other fighters mentioned (or still others) they could post them in here and we could amass a small collection of old school techniques on film?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LZxF-4P1ng
Yes, Duran was a magnificent infighter. Somebody once posted an excellent video on here somewhere which illustrated that really well.
Honourable mention to the Archie Moore 'crossed arm' defence, which he later taught to George Foreman. Very effective.
Here you go :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR
Roberto Druan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUrm26VQh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_bJVON3qMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2YncTggo1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXctTCND72U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXA5kEga2dU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFl0nh6FNXA
Kovalev and Golovkin both use an old-school technique known as "shifting".
;D See above "Tao of Duran" @ 3:45Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict
Thanks for posting these Jimanuel, I have only had time to look at the first video so far but will hopefully have time to watch the rest tomorrow :) It's fascinating to see these techniques employed in a boxing ring, because it's so much harder to get a feel for your opponent with a big pair of gloves on, they are naturally disconnecting, but clearly Roberto had no problems! :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusHere you go :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR
This is one of the techniques I was thinking of with regards to footwork. I have trained with boxers before who cannot understand why anyone would change their stance mid fight, although more accurately you would say mid-sequence. The common response is that you should simply stick to developing your techniques out of the stance which is most natural to you, as though switching stances is some sort of pugilistic faux pas, however this is another 'technique' which is merely thought of as common sense in many martial arts. The reality is that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of openings in any given fight which occur outside the parameters of your natural stance, and shifting from one stance to another fluidly allows one to take advantage of these 'extra' openings that most fighters never even try to access. It also disrupts the opponent's rhythm, particularly when the changes are sporadic and not pre-meditated, e.g. the way that Fury changed to southpaw against Chisora. Of course it may still have some strategic value if you know that a particular opponent may not know how to fight against a southpaw, but a spontaneous rhythm is still superior to an alternative rhythm, since the former is impossible to interpret and therefore forces one to either concede to reactivity or attempt to impose one's own rhythm (which in its own way is still reactive, if you're facing a true counter-fighter and have thus been led down a particular, pre-determined path). The latter might be a difficult puzzle, or even one that one has rightly guessed one's opponent cannot decipher, but it nevertheless engenders the opportunity for its solution. A spontaneous rhythm is like a constantly shifting combination lock: before you can figure out the combination, it shifts and transforms, and so one is always chasing shadows and punching at thin air. Indeed, I believe the analysis of Duran's fight against Palomino that Jimanuel shared showed, among other things, how subtle variations in, and layering of, certain offensive tactics effectively disrupts an opponent's rhythm and causes them to be misdirected in their attempted anticipation of their opponent's rhythm.Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict