Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

Just looking on Boxrec and they have made Juan Manuel Marquez the No1 Lightweight in the world. I personally think that I would go for Pacquiao but then again before either had moved upto the division I would have made it a toss up between Casamayor and Campbell as before he beat Diaz I held Diaz up there.

So with JMM beating Casa last night I can understand why they have made him No1 but I'd like to know who agrees with them? I will have to vote NO for now at least as I think that Pac is the top man personally and whether you agreed with the decision or not he beat JMM last time they met.

Who cares about BoxRec...

You gotta go around and get the big picture, meaning go look at other sites and see what the general sensus is. You can't base anything around BoxRec that database is not a good one for rankings.

Let The Ring, EPSN among other sites update their rankings and you'll get a better feel of where he should be.


For me the rankings at Lighweight should be as follows;

1. JMM
2. Nate
3. Pac
4. "Baby Bull" Diaz
5. Casamayor
6. David Diaz
7. Santa Cruz
8. Kats
9. "Kid" Diaz
10. Romanov

Nate Campbel is numver 1 at 135lbs.

Marques is 2nd.

Marquez is the champion.

I don't see how Marquez can claim to be number 1. For me Nate Campbell is the lightweight champ as he beat the man considered by everybody to be the best fighter at 130 lbs.

Casamayor may have been the linear champion but he's looked God awful lately. His win over Coralles was wholly uninspired. He got his ass handed to him by Santa Cruz and he went life and death with Katsidis who is a poor mans Gatti.

No way was Casamayor the best lightweight in the division, not in 2008.

I'd have Pac at two. Although his win over Diaz isn't as impressive as a win over Casa he did get the decision over Marquez, and I can't justify putting a fighter above another fighter to whom they lost in the past year.

Campbell must be considered the lightweight number 1 right now, although I guess Marquez has the linear claim.

My own rankings, would be as follows.

1. Campbell
2. Pacquauio
3. Marquez
4. J Diaz
5. Casamayor
6. Santa Cruz
7. Julio Diaz
8. D Diaz
9. Romanov
10. Katsidis

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. :puke: a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds. :puke:

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Who cares about BoxRec...

You gotta go around and get the big picture, meaning go look at other sites and see what the general sensus is. You can't base anything around BoxRec that database is not a good one for rankings.

Let The Ring, EPSN among other sites update their rankings and you'll get a better feel of where he should be.


For me the rankings at Lighweight should be as follows;

1. JMM
2. Nate
3. Pac
4. "Baby Bull" Diaz
5. Casamayor
6. David Diaz
7. Santa Cruz
8. Kats
9. "Kid" Diaz
10. Romanov

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I know this about boxrec. I didn't make it clear in my question sorry. I mean they have Pac at no5 in the p4p rankings which is insane. I was just commenting on their opinion and wondered who agreed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. :puke: a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds. :puke:

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

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Well said.

1. Nate Campbell
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Juan Diaz
5. Joel Casamayor
6. Julio Diaz
7. David Diaz
8. Santa Cruz
9. Yuri Romanov
10. Breidis Prescott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. :puke: a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds. :puke:

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

---

The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.

Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.

But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?

I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.

But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.

Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.

He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.

Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.

Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.

Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.

Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)

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Juan Diaz was considered the man when Nate Campbell beat him and he was considered the best Lightweight at that time and was also top 10 P4P.

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Originally Posted by ICB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)

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Juan Diaz was considered the man when Nate Campbell beat him and he was considered the best Lightweight at that time and was also top 10 P4P.

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Casa was the man from when he beat Corrales ;)

i guess hes #1 BUT only because he kod casa which is a hell of a way to enter 135 but you cant count nate out either they might as well face each other;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)

---

You know, it's a really complicated picture. I completely agree with you that according to the Ring criteria that Marquez is now the man as he did indeed beat the man and is now the linear champ.

But it's more confusing than that. The Ring rankings are devised as a way to rank fairly and accurately the state of each boxing's divisons so that mess of the alphabet titles and dodgy organisation rankings becomes clearer.

In this particular instance though going strictly by the Ring's ranking criteria only serves to muddy the waters further so to speak.

Coming into his fight with Nate Campbell there is absolutely no question that Juan Diaz WAS considered the man to beat in the division. Casa had been the beneficiary of arguably one of the worst judging decisions of all time and had looked terrible against Santa Cruz. Furthermore he simply wasn't fighting and was too inactive.

Diaz on the other hand was on a tear through the division, holding 3 belts and forcing reigning champ Julio Diaz and lightweight great Acelino Freitas to quit on their stools from the punishment he was dishing out.

There is absolutely no question that Juan Diaz was THE man in the lightweight division. He didn't have the claim to lineage that Casa had but he clearly and undisputabley the best fighter in the division.

So Campbells dominating victory over him was huge.

Meanwhile Casa had had like one fight in two years and got schooled, it was simply no contest as to who was the champ in the division.

So whilst I agree with you that the 'correct' ranking is to put Marquezs as champ for beating Casa, this is simply not an accurate reflection of the lightweight division.

Marquez didn't beat the best lightweight, he didn't beat the real number one in the division. Nate Campbell did when he beat Juan Diaz.

This means that the Ring rankings in this particular case actually produce an innacurate picture of the lightweight division.

It's something of an irony but shows that even the Ring rankings are flawed and that indeed that ranking fighters is very hard if not impossible to do.

Casamayor became THE MAN after beating Diego Corrales.

Diaz has NEVER been THE MAN - which means Campbell's victory over him means he's NEVER been THE MAN either (how stupid is this stuff ;D)

I agree with your formlines though. I don't think Casamayor had been the top lightweight for a good while. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Casamayor became THE MAN after beating Diego Corrales.

Diaz has NEVER been THE MAN - which means Campbell's victory over him means he's NEVER been THE MAN either (how stupid is this stuff ;D)

I agree with your formlines though. I don't think Casamayor had been the top lightweight for a good while. ;)

---

I think we clearly both agree in reality. Marquez as champ is the 'correct' decision, but it's not the accurate decision reflecting reality is what I'm saying.

This man who beat the man stuff is kind of stupid as well though.

I mean what happens if Marquez retired whilst still champ, who would be the man then? Or would we never have a ring champ in the lightweight division again?

I think it's nice to trace the lineage of the championship but in reality to stick to it rigidly means that the rankings get as ridiculous as the alphabet way of doing things.

According to your reasoning once a fighter becomes THE man then there is no possible way, other than defeat for him to lose that status.

Imo being inactive for well over a year and then getting dominated in your first fight back should be enough to have you relegated from being THE man, especially when in your abscence another undefeated fighter has picked up 3 of the 4 recognised belts in your division.

Casa may have been THE man according to lineararity but he was simply DONE according to all other boxing rating criterea :p

I have some problems with the whole lineal idea, I really don't care about it even slightly actually, but if you want to go ahead and call him the man cause of that fine but Nate's win over Diaz was clearly more impressive. I'm not even sure if that's debatable, Casa hasn't looked good for years.

I've been agreeing with Bilbo a lot lately :D

The lineal championship I agree with. I think Marquez fought the real champ last night and Campbell is #2. So obviously we have to make a Campbell Marquez fight right ? Well hopefully.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

The lineal championship I agree with. I think Marquez fought the real champ last night and Campbell is #2. So obviously we have to make a Campbell Marquez fight right ? Well hopefully.

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I'd love to see this fight and then the winner take on Pac and I think lose to Pac!

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pugilistic

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez. ;)

---

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

Forget the carnival trinkets and shiny things.I'm pretty conflicted on this.In a head to head match up and based on most recent preformances.....I really think Marquez is just too sharp and down the middle all around for Campbell.

But,I consider Campbell to be numero uno,Marquez 2nd,and Pac 3rd. ???what do we base it on.....# of belts ?Quality of opposition in respected division?Time at that weight and fight by fight quality?Then again,does one Casamayor battering win = wins over Juan Diaz,Kid Diamond,Quiles (ugh),Hlatswayo,Matt Zegan...Huh?,Oh and a loss to Lorenzo,who was just bludgeoned by Humberto Soto ?

Then again x 2.....Marquez is a P4P top tier fighter with out question......and is fresh off two ,some would say solidly,even up fights with the #1 P4P fighter today,Manny Pacquiao?3rd then again ...Awwwh nevermind :bucktooth:

They need to fight,bottom line!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pugilistic

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez. ;)

---

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

---

My exact the same sentiment/stand as posted on the other thread...

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

You can also add the argument on how these guys win over the fallen champs...

- Pacquiao totally dominated David Diaz before the 9th round stoppage
- Campbell dominated Juan
- JMM and Casa fought a close fight until the time of 11th round stoppage
.

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

---

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

Some of you guys made me laugh. If Pacman beats up a 29-34 year old fighter, he is branded as fighting oldies and past their prime. If Marquez beats up a 37 year old fighter he should be number 1.. What the hell??? If Pac moves up and beat a recognize belt holder he is branded as fighting the weakest champion (as the case against D. Diaz). But if Marquez beats up and win the fraud belt of Casa(fraud coz it was a gift from Santa Cruz) he is the greatest???? You guys are really funny here, like the way you don't give credit to campbell's accomplishment. Campbell beats up a PRIME+MULTIPLE BELT HOLDER fighter. Campbell should be above Pacman and Marquez. Don't reason out like Marquez beat the man who beat Campbell before.. Hey the man who beat Campbell before was a fresher Casa not a 37yr old Casa. If you consider this kind of reasoning, heres another one, Pac beat D.Diaz who knock Santa Cruz out who win on most peoples eye but lost to Casa in a controversial decision. Its sucks right... Lets just wait who clean up the division but for the mean time i give Campbell his credit and rank as the man of the lightweight. He may be a weak champ with many L on his resume but has the credential and wins against credible champs as of press time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

---

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

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I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up :)

[QUOTE=Galaxy;598025]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

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Exactly. Marquez might well be the third-best fighter in the division (or even the fourth best after Juan Diaz), but he's still the champ because he beat the champ. Campbell is unquestionably the #1 contender.

Nate's a great fighter, he handily conquered the guy who everyone thought was the cream of the division, and he'd probably be a favorite against JMM if (hopefully when) they fight, but none of that makes him the champ.

As for Pac, considering his next fight is at welterweight, why worry about him? If he was seriously interested in being the #1 lightweight, he could have pushed for a fight against Casamayor or Campbell. Instead he's going for a big payday with ODLH, and hey, good for him, but worry about where he ranks when he decides to pick a division to hang around in.

To add more confusion to the no. 1 lightweight chaos, try to predict the winner of these match ups... For those fights that already happened, try to stick to the most recent official results... Enjoy and have fun ... ;D

PAC vs David Diaz - PAC TKO9
PAC vs Campbell
PAC vs JMM - PAC SD12
PAC vs. Juan Diaz
PAC vs. Casamayor

Campbell vs David Diaz
Campbell vs PAC
Campbell vs JMM
Campbell vs. Juan Diaz - Campbell SD12
Campbell vs. Casamayor - Casamayor UD10

JMM vs David Diaz
JMM vs Campbell
JMM vs PAC - PAC SD12
JMM vs. Juan Diaz
JMM vs. Casamayor - JMM TKO11

Who do you think will come out the big winner in these match-ups?

So far PAC is 2-0-0 and Campbell and JMM are tied at 1-1-0 ;D

If I complete the match-ups, IMO PAC will come out 5-0-0, Campbell at 4-1-0 and JMM at 3-2-0 ...

So I have my no. 1 LW = PAC ;D
.

I voted no, but I understand the reasoning. Based on the results of their fights I think Pac should be #1. I know they were close fights, but decisions mean something. BTW, I don't won't to hijack this thread, but I didn't see their second fight as controversial as some writers (Dan Rafael) seem to suggest. It was a split decision and the judges cards were not out of whack. Anyone agree or disagree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

To add more confusion to the no. 1 lightweight chaos, try to predict the winner of these match ups... For those fights that already happened, try to stick to the most recent official results... Enjoy and have fun ... ;D

PAC vs David Diaz - PAC TKO9
PAC vs Campbell
PAC vs JMM - PAC SD12
PAC vs. Juan Diaz
PAC vs. Casamayor

Campbell vs David Diaz
Campbell vs PAC
Campbell vs JMM
Campbell vs. Juan Diaz - Campbell SD12
Campbell vs. Casamayor - Casamayor UD10

JMM vs David Diaz
JMM vs Campbell
JMM vs PAC - PAC SD12
JMM vs. Juan Diaz
JMM vs. Casamayor - JMM TKO11

Who do you think will come out the big winner in these match-ups?

So far PAC is 2-0-0 and Campbell and JMM are tied at 1-1-0 ;D

If I complete the match-ups, IMO PAC will come out 5-0-0, Campbell at 4-1-0 and JMM at 3-2-0 ...

So I have my no. 1 LW = PAC ;D
.

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lol and a completely impartial and unbiased view it is too ;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

To add more confusion to the no. 1 lightweight chaos, try to predict the winner of these match ups... For those fights that already happened, try to stick to the most recent official results... Enjoy and have fun ... ;D

PAC vs David Diaz - PAC TKO9
PAC vs Campbell
PAC vs JMM - PAC SD12
PAC vs. Juan Diaz
PAC vs. Casamayor

Campbell vs David Diaz
Campbell vs PAC
Campbell vs JMM
Campbell vs. Juan Diaz - Campbell SD12
Campbell vs. Casamayor - Casamayor UD10

JMM vs David Diaz
JMM vs Campbell
JMM vs PAC - PAC SD12
JMM vs. Juan Diaz
JMM vs. Casamayor - JMM TKO11

Who do you think will come out the big winner in these match-ups?

So far PAC is 2-0-0 and Campbell and JMM are tied at 1-1-0 ;D

If I complete the match-ups, IMO PAC will come out 5-0-0, Campbell at 4-1-0 and JMM at 3-2-0 ...

So I have my no. 1 LW = PAC ;D
.

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lol and a completely impartial and unbiased view it is too ;D

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Indeed ;D since if you just stop at the completed match-ups and won't proceed with the projected future match-ups, PAC is already leading the pack... ;D
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

To add more confusion to the no. 1 lightweight chaos, try to predict the winner of these match ups... For those fights that already happened, try to stick to the most recent official results... Enjoy and have fun ... ;D

PAC vs David Diaz - PAC TKO9
PAC vs Campbell
PAC vs JMM - PAC SD12
PAC vs. Juan Diaz
PAC vs. Casamayor

Campbell vs David Diaz
Campbell vs PAC
Campbell vs JMM
Campbell vs. Juan Diaz - Campbell SD12
Campbell vs. Casamayor - Casamayor UD10

JMM vs David Diaz
JMM vs Campbell
JMM vs PAC - PAC SD12
JMM vs. Juan Diaz
JMM vs. Casamayor - JMM TKO11

Who do you think will come out the big winner in these match-ups?

So far PAC is 2-0-0 and Campbell and JMM are tied at 1-1-0 ;D

If I complete the match-ups, IMO PAC will come out 5-0-0, Campbell at 4-1-0 and JMM at 3-2-0 ...

So I have my no. 1 LW = PAC ;D
.

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lol and a completely impartial and unbiased view it is too ;D

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Indeed ;D since if you just stop at the completed match-ups and won't proceed with the projected future match-ups, PAC is already leading the pack... ;D
.

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1. Juan Manuel Marquez
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Nate Campbell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.

Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.

I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.

The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.

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Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

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I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up :)

---

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

---

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up :)

---

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

---

One question here, will DelaHoya become the no. 1 P4P if he beats PAC come Dec. 6 ?

I think the answer is NO but Oscar can make a spin on it by beating the man seating on the P4P throne... ;)
.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up :)

---

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

---

One question here, will DelaHoya become the no. 1 P4P if he beats PAC come Dec. 6 ?

I think the answer is NO but Oscar can make a spin on it by beating the man seating on the P4P throne... ;)
.

---

The answer is no but I have no idea what this has to do with a the lightweight championship. P4P is purely mythical rankings & is based on a whole career of achievement at different weights & against different opponents.

When Douglas beat Tyson I can't name one person who rated Buster as #1 P4P but he was still the world heavyweight champion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaddoBoxer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

---

One question here, will DelaHoya become the no. 1 P4P if he beats PAC come Dec. 6 ?

I think the answer is NO but Oscar can make a spin on it by beating the man seating on the P4P throne... ;)
.

---

The answer is no but I have no idea what this has to do with a the lightweight championship. P4P is purely mythical rankings & is based on a whole career of achievement at different weights & against different opponents.

When Douglas beat Tyson I can't name one person who rated Buster as #1 P4P but he was still the world heavyweight champion!

---

It has nothing to do with the LW championship... but I'm guessing Hoya might use the phrase "I'm now the man because I beat the man"... ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!

Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!

Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.

The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!

Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!

---

I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.

But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.

For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.

Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.

Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.

So Marquez for me is at number 3.

Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.

I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.

but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.

He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.

NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.

Hope that clears it up :)

---

I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!

So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!

Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!

Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.

Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!

---

That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago ;)