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1) Jean Marc Mormeck
2) John Ruiz
3) Nikolay Valuev
Yes David you really can 'hold your head up high' if the Klitchsko fights don't go ahead before you hide behind your grand old age of 31 years.
What a joke, he's nothing but a celebrity boxer who's conning the public the same way Ricky Hatton did but on a larger scale. Atleast Ricky did love boxing and had career defining fights.
He is a businessman and long ago realised that the public were mugs. Valuev was a paper champion who should have lost his belt earlier and since then Haye has simply gone for the easiest target for the biggest reward. An ancient Ruiz and a god awful Audley Harrison. Hardly awe inspiring. Sure, Haye can retire right now as a rather wealthy man, but as a great boxer? No, if he doesn't fight a Klit, then he goes down as all smoke and mirrors at HW.
Haye has no way of escaping that no matter how much he tries to delude himself, but just maybe he doesn't care about any of that. He seems to like talking more than fighting anyway.
And Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Lets not make this about Wlad V Haye or it becomes just another slanging match between Lyle and the sensible people.
Lets see this thread for what it is, shite.
In pro boxing, let's face it, the name of the game is how much you make - not how many honours won. - Reg Gutteridge
Wlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
What a shame boxers such as Haye happily embrace this philosophy to the detrement of the sport and its fans. Thank God for Carl Froch and Amir Khan, never thought I'd say that in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I totally agree and it isn't often I have nice things to say about Khan. He does at least fight on a regular basis. Can't knock him for that. Froch is just brilliant. He's really grown on me over the years and that's because he will take on whoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_SimasuWhat a shame boxers such as Haye happily embrace this philosophy to the detrement of the sport and its fans. Thank God for Carl Froch and Amir Khan, never thought I'd say that in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Lets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
It doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
But don't get me wrong, of course I want to see the fight as much as anyone else. I just think Wlad has a far stronger resume that's all.
I disagree. The names you mentioned on Wlad's record are hardly career defining fights. I would also suggest some of those names you mentioned are not better than Valuev or Ruiz. No way is a shot Hasim Rahman a more career defining fight than either of those 2 names. Chambers isn't much either. Chagaev is likely next for Haye so really I'm not seeing how Wlad is so much better. Not one name on his record is considered a more dangerous opponent to him than David Haye. They need each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIt doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
Froch and Khan do exactly the same as Haye and every other boxer on the planet - take the best monetary deal. Simple as that.
Only boxing nerds care about resumes. Haye is a multi-millionaire two weight "world" champion and A-list star in Britain. That is what you call success.
It depends of how you are defining a career defining fight. Those fighters are as good as it gets in HW boxing over the last decade. Not as eye catching as what we saw in the '90's, but what can you do. Chagaev already beat Valuev really (pesky judges) and a 37 year old battle torn retired Ruiz would be beaten by most of those fighters too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnI disagree. The names you mentioned on Wlad's record are hardly career defining fights. I would also suggest some of those names you mentioned are not better than Valuev or Ruiz. No way is a shot Hasim Rahman a more career defining fight than either of those 2 names. Chambers isn't much either. Chagaev is likely next for Haye so really I'm not seeing how Wlad is so much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesIt doesn't escape the fact that Wlad has beaten far more significant names than Haye has though. Like I say, Harrison might have been good for business and winning a belt against Valuev was practical, but beyond talking a lot, it isn't so much his in ring action that has led to the demand for a Wlad fight. I really don't think it matters so much if Wlad doesn't fight Haye as he has beaten names and been champ a long time, but it really does matter to Hayes legacy as a fighter with only 2 dozen fights and a lack of credible big name opponents on his resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnLets be clear though, each of his Heavyweight opponents barring Monte Barrett have been business decisions. Valuev was offering more money than Vitali or Haye, so he fought for that version of the heavyweight title. Winning it was a bargaining chip for more money with the Klitschko's so he had to fight Ruiz (mandatory) or he'd have been stripped of said bargaining chip. Then he fought Harrison because it was no risk and massive financial reward. Harrison didn't deserve it, but it was an easy payday. That isn't avoidence, that is purely refusing to fight for a smaller slice of pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesWlad has had far more significant fights than Haye at HW. Ibragimov, Peter, Chambers, Chagaev, Byrd and even ahem Rahman are better fighters than anyone Haye has faced at HW IMO. Haye is all flash at HW so far and beyond picking up the belt hasn't beaten anyone of the same age or in their prime. He appears to be dangerous, but aside from beating Valuev has done nothing to even deserve a shot at Wlad really. Haye fights once, perhaps twice a year and and since moving up hasn't even been in against top fighters. He hasn't attempted to fight any of the fighters Wlad has and we could even put Adamek, Arreola and Povetkin into the pot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnAnd Wlad's career defining fights are better? They need each other for f*cks sake. Fact is, neither of them has faced an opponent more dangerous than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Haye was a good cruiserweight, although not particularly disposed to regular ring action, but at HW he has been a bit of a fraud thus far and recent quality of opposition has been extremely mediocre.
Haye hasn't really done that much at HW and his inactivity goes against him too. Sure, Wlad has been in no megafights per se, but his resume is solid and better than Haye's. You don't really see career defining fights at HW, but this fight has been built on a war of words rather than anything spectacular in the ring. I'm not convinced that Haye is even the 3rd best heavyweight in the world right now, but I am curious to see a Wlad or Vitali fight like anyone else.
Again this isnt about who is better, Haye or Wlad.
Sure Haye loves the attention, but its only recently he's been getting it, not like Amir or Ricky who have had massive followings from day dot. Anyone who thinks has has conned his way into the limelight is a prick.
To me it was clear this thread was started to claim that Haye needs Wlad, hence why I counter claimed. Miles, my point was that not one of the names you mentioned of Wlad's record would go in as favourite in a fight with David Haye. Like it or not, he is widely considered the biggest threat to Wlad's crown so for them not to fight would be a blow to both. It is a career defining fight for both. As a career defining fight, are you suggesting Wlad can pack up happy he has done all he can to cement his legacy, or do you agree that Wlad needs Haye? I'm not saying Haye doesn't need Wlad, because he does. My argument is that they both need each other.
If you judge Haye as a CW then he fought the best and beat the best.
However Hayes record at HW is not that impressive.He beat Valuev for the title which is fair enough,he had to fight Ruiz because he was his mandentory which again he did not have much choice in.
Not much excuse in fighting Harrison apart from the money and an easy nights work .
So Haye still has a lot to prove at HW IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Going To Mormecks backyard, getting up from the deck and winning by TKO didn't impress you?
How many people do that?
He cleaned up the Cruiser division in style imo, battering every opponent he faced (Bar Thompson).
I was ringside for the Fragomenni fight when he was cut badly and dug deep to get a tko in a tough , tough fight.
That showed he had a pair ;)
And is it his fault the Heavyweight division is shit?
He's never ducked anyone and so what if he made a few quid fighting Audrey...
Is clear for everyone to see that the Klit Bros are doing everything possible to avoid a fight with him.
So in your opinion who is there for him to fight out there that would be defining?
Take Vitali and Wlad out the division for a minute
Exactly! ;)
The result of the Mormec fight surprised me more than it impressed me. What has Mormec ever really done before or after the Haye fight? Nothing worthy of a mention. Haye ruled a very weak cruiserweight division for a short time let's not forget that. Haye could've fought several fighter's to grab my attention by now such as Adamek, Chaegev, Arreola, Peter, Chambers or even Chisora. I'll let him off for the Valuev and Ruiz fights because Valuev was the easiest option to become a champion and in Ruiz he was fighting the mandatory for the belt. It still doesn't excuse his inactivity and he clearly only uses boxing as his ticket to fame. A more admirable approach than your average big brother contestant but for a boxing fan (as opposed to 'nerd' which I was earlier labelled) he's part of the reason boxing is not the sport it once was.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Going To Mormecks backyard, getting up from the deck and winning by TKO didn't impress you?
How many people do that?
He cleaned up the Cruiser division in style imo, battering every opponent he faced (Bar Thompson).
I was ringside for the Fragomenni fight when he was cut badly and dug deep to get a tko in a tough , tough fight.
That showed he had a pair ;)
And is it his fault the Heavyweight division is shit?
He's never ducked anyone and so what if he made a few quid fighting Audrey...
Is clear for everyone to see that the Klit Bros are doing everything possible to avoid a fight with him.
So in your opinion who is there for him to fight out there that would be defining?
Take Vitali and Wlad out the division for a minute
Exactly! ;)
What about Enzo Maccarinelli? I seem to remember a lot of bragging about that fight.
I think both Wlad and Vitali have had long and fairly decent careers, so could call it a day without fighting Haye, but it would be better to see them fight Haye though. It would add a bit more at the end. No reason why they shouldn't. It's big money and all the talking has built up some expectation. Belt holder against best holder with a bit of a grudge thrown in for good measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfn
Yeah, get it on. Like I say, I want to see it too.
Yes but you remember alot of things that werent actually true dont you Lyle. Most people here ignore anything you care to remember as its more than likely bollocks. A few nut jobs go along with it but more fool them I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisYes but you remember alot of things that werent actually true dont you Lyle. Most people here ignore anything you care to remember as its more than likely bollocks. A few nut jobs go along with it but more fool them I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
;D
I am and have been for sometime...utterly convinced that Lyle actually lives in Vitalis ring piece :)
I'd bet heavily he's got his picture on his wall and his name upon his scarf ;D
I just asked a question Memphis, no need to get your panties in a wad. Its not like I said that the Maccarinelli fight was THE defining fight for him I merely wondered why it wasn't included especially since the WBA title holder himself thought so highly of his performance in that fight. Its not like I mentioned the Monte Barrett fight or Audley Harrison fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisYes but you remember alot of things that werent actually true dont you Lyle. Most people here ignore anything you care to remember as its more than likely bollocks. A few nut jobs go along with it but more fool them I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You Brits need to get a grip, not EVERY post I make is purposely meant to stir you up....occasionally I do have my fun, but ffs take a chill pill, I make one post and all of you are up on your hind legs getting all defensive and calling me names....I think you're protesting too much, I believe I've hit a nerve with you guys.
Who needs to chill? Im stating a cast iron truth Lyle, you know it and so do I. You make shit up for a past time, its not done in jest, your not that funny a guy. I didnt call you any names, you see, there you go again, seeing something that isnt there. I dont think you realise you're doing it ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI just asked a question Memphis, no need to get your panties in a wad. Its not like I said that the Maccarinelli fight was THE defining fight for him I merely wondered why it wasn't included especially since the WBA title holder himself thought so highly of his performance in that fight. Its not like I mentioned the Monte Barrett fight or Audley Harrison fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisYes but you remember alot of things that werent actually true dont you Lyle. Most people here ignore anything you care to remember as its more than likely bollocks. A few nut jobs go along with it but more fool them I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You Brits need to get a grip, not EVERY post I make is purposely meant to stir you up....occasionally I do have my fun, but ffs take a chill pill, I make one post and all of you are up on your hind legs getting all defensive and calling me names....I think you're protesting too much, I believe I've hit a nerve with you guys.
#1 No you specifically didn't call me a name Memphis but other Brits have and you stated that my question was "Made up" and "Bollocks"
#2 Where did I make something up? I just asked a simple question.
That includes myself too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Simasu
Other Brits have so Im guilty too? Bit racists init? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I didnt say your question was made up or bollocks, I said your memory is shit and that other people think your recollection of certain events is more than likely bollocks, you proved that in #1
as for #2, see response to #1
#1 British isn't a race
#2 What did I remember incorrectly?
Well I didnt say your question was made up or bollocks for a start. I havent had to leave this thread and your doing all the work for me ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
1# we are a race
2# you always use numbers in your posts
3# do you ever talk about anything else other than wlad klit?
#1 So when you fill out a job application or college application and you're asked to put a check beside your race you check British and not white/caucasian or black? Odd that I've never seen the choice of "British" on any applications I've filled out. Also this would mean that Frank Bruno and Ricky Hatton and Naseem Hamed, all British, are therefore all the same race.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
1# we are a race
2# you always use numbers in your posts
3# do you ever talk about anything else other than wlad klit?
#2 The way I post leads to clear points being made and attributed to certain germane parts of a debate.
#3 I post about other fighters as well. Miguel Cotto, Tavoris Cloud, etc. I recently started a thread about a guy moving up to heavyweight Carlos Negron.
#1 It was a jokeQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong#1 So when you fill out a job application or college application and you're asked to put a check beside your race you check British and not white/caucasian or black? Odd that I've never seen the choice of "British" on any applications I've filled out. Also this would mean that Frank Bruno and Ricky Hatton and Naseem Hamed, all British, are therefore all the same race.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
1# we are a race
2# you always use numbers in your posts
3# do you ever talk about anything else other than wlad klit?
#2 The way I post leads to clear points being made and attributed to certain germane parts of a debate.
#3 I post about other fighters as well. Miguel Cotto, Tavoris Cloud, etc. I recently started a thread about a guy moving up to heavyweight Carlos Negron.
#2 No it doesnt. Bullet your responses any way you like, you still dont know what your talking about
#3 Yes but you almost exclusively talk about the Klit boys, lets not pretend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong#1 So when you fill out a job application or college application and you're asked to put a check beside your race you check British and not white/caucasian or black? Odd that I've never seen the choice of "British" on any applications I've filled out. Also this would mean that Frank Bruno and Ricky Hatton and Naseem Hamed, all British, are therefore all the same race.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
1# we are a race
2# you always use numbers in your posts
3# do you ever talk about anything else other than wlad klit?
#2 The way I post leads to clear points being made and attributed to certain germane parts of a debate.
#3 I post about other fighters as well. Miguel Cotto, Tavoris Cloud, etc. I recently started a thread about a guy moving up to heavyweight Carlos Negron.
1# yup, we are the mother race, team britain
2# doesnt
3# whilst writing those posts you were thinking of wlad
Yeah and you managed to fuck that up ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You may want to double check that Memphis as once I was told I had made a mistake I corrected it.
You were saying?
I was saying that you fucked up, you did fuck up right? The first words you type in a thread that you offer as proof that you dont exclusively post about the Klit boys is incorrect, tell me that isnt funny, or ironic, or something.
Well done for correcting yourself when someone brought it to your attention though, you da man ;D
OK so I'm not even allowed to get someone's nationality wrong and even if I correct it, it still gets used against me? Gee are we holding all our posters to this high of a standard Memphis or are you making a special case for me just because you don't want to really debate the topic at hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis
i bet you know wlads nationalityQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOK so I'm not even allowed to get someone's nationality wrong and even if I correct it, it still gets used against me? Gee are we holding all our posters to this high of a standard Memphis or are you making a special case for me just because you don't want to really debate the topic at hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis
Yes and he also doesn't have just 10 total fights to his name either. Your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44i bet you know wlads nationalityQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongOK so I'm not even allowed to get someone's nationality wrong and even if I correct it, it still gets used against me? Gee are we holding all our posters to this high of a standard Memphis or are you making a special case for me just because you don't want to really debate the topic at hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis