At age 41, he's well past his prime and his career nearly over now, so perhaps it's a good time to ask this question.
Is Wladimir Klitschko a top ten ATG heavyweight? Yes or no?
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At age 41, he's well past his prime and his career nearly over now, so perhaps it's a good time to ask this question.
Is Wladimir Klitschko a top ten ATG heavyweight? Yes or no?
No
I vote no also.
I think so, he has defeated 11 current(at the time)/former heavyweight champiopns, 2 olympic gold medalists and some good pros with strong amatuer world championship performances(ibragimov and chagaev), His 2nd reign lasted 9 years :S and he held a title belt before that too. He also made great efforts to get the other champions in the ring too, offering ibragimov and haye 50/50 splits to make teh fights happen..I would say certainly top 10 all time, not top 5 for me due to too many bad losses.
I say yes
Wasn't this thread done just a few weeks ago? I'm sure there was a pretty lengthy debate about it recently
I don't think so
His reign was built on holding and rule bending which he got away with coz of home advantage and the money he generated
His reign was aweful
His record says yes. Will always be judged against the era he fought in - not his fault.
Top twenty yes for me. Ten no
I say yes he is although I think Bowe and Vitali would beat him but his record of consistancy and defences puts him above them. I have him ahead of Dempsey, Tunney, Rocky and old guard Sullivan, Corbett and Jim Jeffries.
Ali
Louis
Holmes
Jack Johnson
Tyson
Lennox
Foreman
Frazier
Holyfield
Wlad
Marciano should push Wlad out of your list. Personally I'd have Liston ahead of him as well as a few others. Tyson is way to high for me. He doesn't make my 10 either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Liston only beat Floyd as champion but acknowledge he had to face the great Ali as did Foreman.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaMarciano should push Wlad out of your list. Personally I'd have Liston ahead of him as well as a few others. Tyson is way to high for me. He doesn't make my 10 either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Rocky is a whole new debate thread.
Tyson is in there and may not be as high but definitely in the top 10.
Liston pretty much cleaned out the division before becoming champ. During Tyson's prime I can see him very high but it was very short.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterListon only beat Floyd as champion but acknowledge he had to face the great Ali as did Foreman.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaMarciano should push Wlad out of your list. Personally I'd have Liston ahead of him as well as a few others. Tyson is way to high for me. He doesn't make my 10 either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Rocky is a whole new debate thread.
Tyson is in there and may not be as high but definitely in the top 10.
No, people are high on an old dog putting in a gutsy end of career showing, but where was this Wlad over a decade of jab and clinch? Wlad has had a great career but has folded all too often when not allowed to jab and clinch. Mark is right, a solid top 20 based on technical skills, but always a punch away from being knocked down or stopped. Vitali was the ior fighter. Chin, output and intelligence. Wlad was always missing a few of those attributes.
Superior...pesky phone....
People complaining about HOW Wlad won are completely ignoring the fact THAT Wlad won.....he's been in and had more title fights than any other heavyweight....ANY OTHER HEAVYWEIGHT he ran the division for 10-11 years, he over came defeats, he adapted his style as he went along.
In terms of accomplishments in the ring he's EASILY top 10...in terms of fighting other greats prime vs prime, who the fuck knows who would beat who that's all speculation, the FACTS, what he accomplished in the ring, that's solid, that's something you can count, something tangible and he's an easy top 10 heavyweight of all time.
It utterly depends on HOW you define 'great'.
If, like many people, you simply think it is about how competent and good a fighter he was ..... then I do believe he would be in the top ten. He would be competitive with all the names mentioned above. Some would probably be favoured to defeat him more often than not, but I doubt he would be totally outclassed many times.
It's likely that he would simply be too big, too athletic for some great names such as Dempsey, Marciano and maybe even Joe Frazier.
I like to define sporting 'greatness' using additional criteria though ..... how did they dominate their era, how many great opponents did they beat, did they cross into the mainstream and what did they do to elevate their sport, how was their longevity, will they be remembered in 50 years etc.
Wlad was always a classy operator, always respected his sport and was a good ambassador. He was also the best heavyweight on the planet for a good decade. However, I would question the Quality of his opponents generally (not his fault, but it is what it is), I don't think he really crossed over into the mainstream or elevated the sport if boxing. He was so superior to many of his opponents that many of his bouts were boring processions.
All in all, then, I wouldn't place him in my own top ten ATGs ..... but that's no insult to a very very good heavyweight and a decent human being.
Replace Frazier with MarcianoQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
There are many reasons that he is not, but one of the biggest is that he wasn't the best HW in the world for most of his reign. Vitali was better but they obviously wouldn't fight each other. Just imagine an alternative reality where they fought and vitali KOd him. Would that change your opinion of his status?
People just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Frazier destroys Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbustReplace Frazier with MarcianoQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Vitali was sturdy but did not reign as long. Wlad had the 2nd highest record number of defences and that must count for something.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Vitali wud beat wlad because he is capable of throwing a punch back at himQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Yes because it is that easy and no one ever tried to do that in all the defences he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Vitali wud beat wlad because he is capable of throwing a punch back at himQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
It's hard to say how good he is/was, because his opposition was so poor. We don't know if he would've still reigned for 10 years even if his opposition was better, but you have to ask yourself this, is there anybody he has beaten, that there aren't at least 30 other HWs' in history that would also have beaten?
I think that even somebody like Tim Witherspoon would've beaten everybody that Wlad beat. It's hard to put somebody top 10 who really hasn't beaten anybody, but hard to keep him out based on his number of wins, time unbeaten, longevity etc. Personally I would not have him top 10.
Love the bloke though!!
It's just SOOOOO easy to beat Wladimir Klitschko that he lost 5 times in 69 bouts :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterYes because it is that easy and no one ever tried to do that in all the defences he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Vitali wud beat wlad because he is capable of throwing a punch back at himQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
So easy that @erics44 himself could do it right? Right @erics44???
It was tough to throw a punch back because every time you try he grabs and holds tight, then leansQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterYes because it is that easy and no one ever tried to do that in all the defences he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Vitali wud beat wlad because he is capable of throwing a punch back at himQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
All you have to do is watch any one of his defences to see that
I honestly can't see how people can defend it, it's absolutely clear as day
Mr. Referee, Mr. Referee!!!! He's not letting me hit him back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
You're ridiculous
If that happened then I would give him a ton more respect. I just don't see it happening. I think that vitali was the better fighter between the two. He just doesn't have the accolades that his brother has.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Your argument doesn't hold up though. Let's say for example that Ali and Frazier never fought. They just avoided each other and both claimed to be the best. Wouldn't both of their statuses have gone down significantly? This fights made them who they were.
Wlad and vitali we're the obvious two best fighters for a while. If they don't fight each other, you have to dock them for avoiding the most dangerous opponent out there even if there was a good reason. I mean seriously, vitali would have been hands down the best fighter that wlad had ever fought. If he could have beaten him, then I would have said that he was the real deal. Since they didn't fight, I can only go off of what I perceive which was that wlad would have gotten beat and basically got a free pass to avoid the actual best HW fighter at the time.
Yeah.....soooo in the long and storied history of boxing when have brothers fought each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherIf that happened then I would give him a ton more respect. I just don't see it happening. I think that vitali was the better fighter between the two. He just doesn't have the accolades that his brother has.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Your argument doesn't hold up though. Let's say for example that Ali and Frazier never fought. They just avoided each other and both claimed to be the best. Wouldn't both of their statuses have gone down significantly? This fights made them who they were.
Wlad and vitali we're the obvious two best fighters for a while. If they don't fight each other, you have to dock them for avoiding the most dangerous opponent out there even if there was a good reason. I mean seriously, vitali would have been hands down the best fighter that wlad had ever fought. If he could have beaten him, then I would have said that he was the real deal. Since they didn't fight, I can only go off of what I perceive which was that wlad would have gotten beat and basically got a free pass to avoid the actual best HW fighter at the time.
Max Baer vs Buddy Baer? That ever happen?
Jerry vs Mike vs Bobby in a Quarry Brothers Battle Royal? That ever go down?
Floyd Sr ever fight Roger or Jeff Mayweather?
Leon and Michael Spinks ever fight each other? That ever happen?
Just provide ANY precedent for that fight to happen and I'll agree with you otherwise it's a big old nothing burger
Hughie and Tyson will never fight one another either.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah.....soooo in the long and storied history of boxing when have brothers fought each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherIf that happened then I would give him a ton more respect. I just don't see it happening. I think that vitali was the better fighter between the two. He just doesn't have the accolades that his brother has.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Your argument doesn't hold up though. Let's say for example that Ali and Frazier never fought. They just avoided each other and both claimed to be the best. Wouldn't both of their statuses have gone down significantly? This fights made them who they were.
Wlad and vitali we're the obvious two best fighters for a while. If they don't fight each other, you have to dock them for avoiding the most dangerous opponent out there even if there was a good reason. I mean seriously, vitali would have been hands down the best fighter that wlad had ever fought. If he could have beaten him, then I would have said that he was the real deal. Since they didn't fight, I can only go off of what I perceive which was that wlad would have gotten beat and basically got a free pass to avoid the actual best HW fighter at the time.
Max Baer vs Buddy Baer? That ever happen?
Jerry vs Mike vs Bobby in a Quarry Brothers Battle Royal? That ever go down?
Floyd Sr ever fight Roger or Jeff Mayweather?
Leon and Michael Spinks ever fight each other? That ever happen?
Just provide ANY precedent for that fight to happen and I'll agree with you otherwise it's a big old nothing burger
It doesn't matter if it hasn't happened. The point is that wlad got a free pass against his most dangerous opponent hands down. Even if it's justified, it doesn't take away from the fact that he didn't have to fight the other best fighter in the division.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYeah.....soooo in the long and storied history of boxing when have brothers fought each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherIf that happened then I would give him a ton more respect. I just don't see it happening. I think that vitali was the better fighter between the two. He just doesn't have the accolades that his brother has.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongPeople just assume Wlad would lose to Vitali.....what if Wlad outboxed Vitali? What would you say then?Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Your argument doesn't hold up though. Let's say for example that Ali and Frazier never fought. They just avoided each other and both claimed to be the best. Wouldn't both of their statuses have gone down significantly? This fights made them who they were.
Wlad and vitali we're the obvious two best fighters for a while. If they don't fight each other, you have to dock them for avoiding the most dangerous opponent out there even if there was a good reason. I mean seriously, vitali would have been hands down the best fighter that wlad had ever fought. If he could have beaten him, then I would have said that he was the real deal. Since they didn't fight, I can only go off of what I perceive which was that wlad would have gotten beat and basically got a free pass to avoid the actual best HW fighter at the time.
Max Baer vs Buddy Baer? That ever happen?
Jerry vs Mike vs Bobby in a Quarry Brothers Battle Royal? That ever go down?
Floyd Sr ever fight Roger or Jeff Mayweather?
Leon and Michael Spinks ever fight each other? That ever happen?
Just provide ANY precedent for that fight to happen and I'll agree with you otherwise it's a big old nothing burger
No. The way he lost to AJ took some of the bad taste out of people's mouths... but his decade-long reign was still marred by some of the most ridiculously bad heavyweight title fights in boxing history. If he leaves now, it's with a better impression. But one fight does not undo scores of bad fights.
I long hated him too or at least how he fought, but it was effective. This last fight was a bit like how John Ruiz fought his last match against Haye. No clinching or bullshit. He fought bravely like Wlad did. Also fuck Haye.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I'd say he cracks top 15.
exactly people have short memoriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
its like having a girlfriend who shagged about for 10 years and then forgiving her coz she put in the effort for one last night out
youre ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMr. Referee, Mr. Referee!!!! He's not letting me hit him back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
You're ridiculous
Great comeback, must have taken you ages to think of that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44youre ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMr. Referee, Mr. Referee!!!! He's not letting me hit him back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
You're ridiculous
I knowQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterGreat comeback, must have taken you ages to think of that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44youre ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMr. Referee, Mr. Referee!!!! He's not letting me hit him back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
You're ridiculous
I did think about it, and came up with all sorts of replies but I just felt that that was the best one
Well bless your heartQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44I knowQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterGreat comeback, must have taken you ages to think of that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44youre ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongMr. Referee, Mr. Referee!!!! He's not letting me hit him back :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
You're ridiculous
I did think about it, and came up with all sorts of replies but I just felt that that was the best one
Yes, he does, and he would have had a significant chance to win against most of the all time great. He had it all, even if his chin was ok and not better. The same goes for his brother which, in my opinion, was even better due to his tremendous chin.