Was Muhammad Ali really the best

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by ICB

But all the fighters that gave Ali trouble none of them had good footwork. And Holmes wasn't no slouch in the footwork department, he could dance around the ring very well when he chose to, he just didn't need to because that piston left jab keep his opponents away from him and also made them cautious with there offense.

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Most he screwed around with,the guy who who gave the biggest issues was Frazier,and thats because of all the head movement,he was hard to trace on, and Ali allways wanted to land one solid one early to let you know he could hurt you,so youd fight scared for the rest of the fight. I have to give Joe credit, Ali did drill him, and he just kept weaving in like a little tank.
Unfortunatly that style caught up with Joe

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Frazier used to get underneath Ali's straight shots his jab, straight right hand etc, but with Foreman's wild uppercuts and hooks that bob and weave style was useless. Boxing is funny sometimes its like Rock, Paper, Scissors.

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I think Foreman was timing him,let him bob right in to the shot

I love the 'who was the best ever arguements and the 'who would have won between fighters from different era's' they display both knowledge of boxing history and and an understanding f different fighters styles.

The truth is though they are as pointless as they are interesting. I've argued both topics a million times and rarely if ever has someone changed their opinion ;D. No one can ever be proved 100% conlusivley right and that means that almost everyone's opinion deserves respect I guess.

For me it's virtually impossible to call between (and in particular order) Ali, Johnson, Louis and The Rock.

I wonder what it says about our sport though that a boxer from modern times is hardly ever even considered as challenging for one of the top spots (apart from maybe Tyson) ????

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Originally Posted by Shamrock

I love the 'who was the best ever arguements and the 'who would have won between fighters from different era's' they display both knowledge of boxing history and and an understanding f different fighters styles.

The truth is though they are as pointless as they are interesting. I've argued both topics a million times and rarely if ever has someone changed their opinion ;D. No one can ever be proved 100% conlusivley right and that means that almost everyone's opinion deserves respect I guess.

For me it's virtually impossible to call between (and in particular order) Ali, Johnson, Louis and The Rock.

I wonder what it says about our sport though that a boxer from modern times is hardly ever even considered as challenging for one of the top spots (apart from maybe Tyson) ????

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Naww you could make arguments for current fighters,just not at heavyweight
I cant stand Mayweather,but a case could be made pretty easily
B-hop
Calzeghe
Roy Jones
Oscar,the way he's been able to shunt weight classes is stunning

We've gotten to watch our share of legit greats

Look Ali is at the top but he is over rated people try to meake him a god.

1.Muhammed Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Larry Holmes
4.Lennox Lewis
5.Goerge Forman
6.Evander HolyField
7.Mike Tyson
8.Sonney Liston
9.Rocky Marcieno
10.Gene Tunney

Thats pretty much my list i have had for a while but it changes after the top guys.

...I don't understand how Lennox and Holmes could top Foreman but hey it's your list and not mine, so more power to you.

Liston and Tunney didn't have long reigns as champion either...they were really good, at least Tunney was IMO.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

...I don't understand how Lennox and Holmes could top Foreman but hey it's your list and not mine, so more power to you.

Liston and Tunney didn't have long reigns as champion either...they were really good, at least Tunney was IMO.

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Well Holmes and Lewis dominated there era when Foreman didn't, remember Foreman only made two title defenses then lost to Ali, and never held the title again until 1995. And after he won the title against Moorer he only made 1 defense against Axel Schulz in a controversial fight so all together he only made 3 defenses in his entire career, he was stripped of the title for not defending against Tony Tucker or not giving Schulz rematch can't remember which.

I just remembered he was stripped of WBA Title after the Moorer fight for not defending against Tony Tucker, then he was stripped of the IBF title for not giving Schulz a rematch.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

1.Muhammed Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Larry Holmes
4.Lennox Lewis
5.Goerge Forman
6.Evander HolyField
7.Mike Tyson
8.Sonney Liston
9.Rocky Marcieno
10.Gene Tunney

Thats pretty much my list i have had for a while but it changes after the top guys.

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I'd put Lewis at number 10.;)

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Mr140

1.Muhammed Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Larry Holmes
4.Lennox Lewis
5.Goerge Forman
6.Evander HolyField
7.Mike Tyson
8.Sonney Liston
9.Rocky Marcieno
10.Gene Tunney

Thats pretty much my list i have had for a while but it changes after the top guys.

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I'd put Lewis at number 10.;)

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1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Jack Johnson
4 Larry Holmes
5 Lennox Lewis
6 George Foreman
7 Rocky Marciano
8 Jack Dempsey
9 Evander Holyfield
10 Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by ICB

Well Holmes and Lewis dominated there era when Foreman didn't, remember Foreman only made two title defenses then lost to Ali, and never held the title again until 1995. And after he won the title against Moorer he only made 1 defense against Axel Schulz in a controversial fight so all together he only made 3 defenses in his entire career, he was stripped of the title for not defending against Tony Tucker or not giving Schulz rematch can't remember which.

I just remembered he was stripped of WBA Title after the Moorer fight for not defending against Tony Tucker, then he was stripped of the IBF title for not giving Schulz a rematch.

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Holmes and Lewis didn't have much legitimate competition in their days as champ. The fighters that would have taken them to the top 10 status for me were too old when Holmes and Lewis fought them...just my opinion, but they were definently great.

Foreman not only beat the undefeated undisputed heavyweight champion of the world in a devistating fashion in Joe Frazier....but he took a looooong layoff and came back to beat Michael Moorer when George was 45 years old. That's impressive, but once again just my opinion.

I am not disagreeing with you I am just saying I see it slightly differently

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Rocky Marciano's record is not 100% certain.

He turned professional with an assumed name that was altered a number of times and went back to the amateurs on a few occassions.

He was beaten heavily in the amateurs on more than one occassion.

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So amateur records count now???


Give me a fucking break dude

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Marciano wa mixing the ams and pros.

He had his pro debut and went back to the ams, then went pro again.

He was topped in the amateurs, after his first pro fight.

I beleive ali was a great heavyweight champion but are we talking in boxing terms or are we talking about wat he done pollitically.
I think ali is so big is because of a combination of things, not just some of the great fights he had like frazier fights or foreman or liston but was it because the time in which he was fighting and the colour of his skin or the brilliant way in which he could talk the fight up or was it his religion and things he stood for and things he didnt stand for or was everything i just mentioned a big mix of things that make everyone think ali was not just the greatest heavyweight ever but the greatest boxer of all time.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Marciano wa mixing the ams and pros.

He had his pro debut and went back to the ams, then went pro again.

He was topped in the amateurs, after his first pro fight.

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Whatever....Rocky's record is 49-0-0 that's the recognized record...if I ask any boxing fan what his record is then they would tell me 49-0-0 and not give me some answer like you did.


lambeth, you're new here but riddle me this....did Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, and Jack Dempsey not have to deal with virtually the same issues as Ali? And I know everyone is going to be like "Jack Dempsey what the fuck is he doing there?!?!" well Jack dodged World War I and it was a huge scandle. As for Johnson, he had the same attitude as Ali if not being more abrasive and he had virtually no support group like a NAACP or Nation of Islam or anything like that to back him up. Joe Louis was forced by management to counter Johnson's attitude (even if he wasn't anything like Jack in real life), so basically he had to act in every interview he ever had in his his hay-day.

I don't want this to be about politics or skin color or anything other than boxing. Ali was great, he beat great fighters, but Louis and Marciano are better in my opinion.....and I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way, I respect what Ali did...I just don't make this mythical figure out of him.

[quote=Lyle;518581]

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Marciano wa mixing the ams and pros.

He had his pro debut and went back to the ams, then went pro again.

He was topped in the amateurs, after his first pro fight.

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Whatever....Rocky's record is 49-0-0 that's the recognized record...if I ask any boxing fan what his record is then they would tell me 49-0-0 and not give me some answer like you did.

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I'm being completely factual.
Marciano, was afariad of his mothers reaction to boxing, so he never told her he boxed until he was becoming succesful.

He was a covert amateur taking several beatings in the mateur before embarking into the pros where he had a few early fights with an assumed name.

He then returned to the amateurs where he had mixed fortunes winning some, getting pasted in others.

It's on his life's story DVD.

Well if you go by the states Lewis and Holmes had way better resumes.