White Nationalists and the alt right. Racist as fuck is no better than woke as fuck

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

The right wing also play up to the woke mob and culture wars because it deflects from their own incompetence and corruption. Better to make up or elevate an enemy to get people on your side.

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Hey, I get it. I don't like extremists on either side. They are the bane of the earth. But I judge issues on an individual basis. No amount of right-wing buildup can justify the outcry from the woke mob regarding superficial, meaningless things like pancake syrup brands and team names.

Yes. Like Kirk is fond of saying... it was a financial decision made by the company's owners. But what made it necessary?? That's my point. What is all of a sudden so (cough) "offensive" about an Aunt Jemima brand that was over 100 years old?

I'll happily stand alone on my island. But tokenism and window dressing, followed by pats on the back all around.... while the real problems of a minority go unnoticed or unaddressed.... are one of society's most nauseating ills.

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It must be an easier fix to make token gestures and apologies than have to make substantial changes that take resources and effort.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Instead of blurting out claims with no backup I did a quick google and found that the Redskins owners first came under pressure to change their name in the 1960s. But it was the seventies before it became an issue. I'm guessing most or all of the name change victims whether it's sports teams or long grain rice or whatever first came under any kind of national pressure at this time. That's when all the lefty counterculture shit started:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washin...me_controversy

And not one of these fucking teams or firms changed a thing. Not for half a century. But then all of a sudden they all do it in a period of a few months. They all make this pointless woke token gesture at the same time after resisting it for half a century. You know why? The calculation in the first fifty years was that giving a tiny minority and their lefty liberal fellow travellers what they wanted would produce a Middle American backlash at the crazy lefty shit and it would cost them money. Think Bud Light. Then the George Floyd protests happen and everybody gets polling (almost all polling in America is done by corporations to find out what Americans think about their brands, the political stuff these polling companies do is often a loss leader) and they find out there's a huge sea change in American attitudes to race and social justice and whatever and that it's going to cost them money not to do it. So that's why they did it.

These gestures are not token gestures. They're gestures dictated by the single most important thing in America. Money and the making of money.

Since I'm watching Game Five of the World Series I can explain to you a little bit. And this isn't coming from this crazed lefty, this is coming from maybe the foremost expert on the American elite that there is. If there are any people more expert you can count them on the fingers of one hand, maybe even on the fingers of one finger.

I got to meet this guy watching the Yankees in a fancy box that a bank I used to work for had back in the day. Jeter, Bernie, Mariano. Long story short he was a personal banker for the bank's biggest customers. They deal with the bank directly through this guy. He's been looking after the banking and financial needs of America's elite since the seventies. And this guy knows everybody. He's still going now and has turned his job into a consultancy firm and his sons run it but he's still going in his eighties. It's easy to still do your job when it's all fancy restaurants, ball games, yacht clubs and so on. This guy is now advising and helping the sons and grandsons of guys he originally did the job for. He knows all the old money people all the way through to the new tech people too. And for a young twenty something from a godforsaken place in the north of England he helped fill in a lot of blanks about how the world works. And he's still doing that now. In the banking world everything is a trade. I'm trading information and expertise with him still after all this time.

And let me tell you one single thing that you need to know about America. Everything, and I mean every single thing at corporate and rich elite people level is informed and determined by money and the making of money. There's no great deep state conspiracy out there or lizard people secretly running things or anything like that. There's just a bunch of guys, over a thousand now who run everything who own everything who control everything. Almost everything. And these guys are not complicated people let me tell you. They're exactly like average Americans in that they want to make more money, they want to pay less in taxes on that money and they want to pass what they've made onto their kids without some government taking it off them. They want a country and a world where it's easy and safe and profitable to do business. And that's it.

Some of the people on this elite list are CEOs but the vast majority of CEO people are a notch down from the elite. These guys run the pancake syrup or long grain rice companies and they're changing names or whatever not as a token gesture but because their job is to increase profits and the share price and if they don't do that they'll get fired and maybe fall off the gravy train. Money and the making of money is their alpha and omega. They can technically be sent to prison for not making every cent they can for the businesses they run. They're judged on how well they've done every year by the people who own the stock and if they haven't done as well as expected they get replaced.

People like the family who own the Dr. Seuss estate have a slightly different calculus. They have wealth and want more and are managing an asset that's declining in value as the march of time produces more and more children's books and more competition for the product they own. So they're going to do what they can to squeeze every last dollar out of their intellectual property before it's worthless. Once it is they're going to have to manage on what they have and hope they can manage their money well enough so that it'll be generations before any of them are financially insecure to any extent. The idea that some of their descendants may have to work for a living at some point in the future will be enough to give them the vapours and they'll be doing everything they can to kick that can as far down the road as possible.

So these gestures are not token gestures. They're the most serious gestures you can possibly imagine. They're money gestures.

And I used the wrong Jewish Native American photograph yesterday.

How the hell did I forget this?

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You boil it all down to money, and that's great. I'm not disputing your point of view. But we're focusing on two different things. You're focusing on the effect. I'm focusing on the cause. Of course the CEO's of the world are going to cave to public pressure, if it endangers their bottom line. No one's arguing that.

My focus continues to be on the segment of society that all of a sudden has "developed a conscience" and is behind these name change demands. I couldn't care less about the CEO's. They're spineless in their own way... and will lean in any direction the winds blow, just like politicians. The driving force is always going to be a controlling segment of society. In this case the woke mob that thinks changing name brands and team names is going magically make problems go away. It's a mindless, transparent, shallow, B.S. way of thinking.

But yes... it's still the CEO's who cave and perform the name changes. I think that much is clear.

My disgust is with the "window-dressing", token-clamoring segment of society, who... it might be said... are as racist, sexist, and ethnic-biased as the best of 'em.

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If it's "public pressure" then it isn't a "woke mob" is it. Unless the majority of the general public is a woke mob. These guys are not spineless. They've spent half a century completely ignoring the woke mobs of their day. What they're not ignoring is majority opinion in America. The majority has gone all woke mate.

It is what it is -- trends come and go. Wokeism will surely give way in a few years to strict conservatism, rinse and repeat

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Instead of blurting out claims with no backup I did a quick google and found that the Redskins owners first came under pressure to change their name in the 1960s. But it was the seventies before it became an issue. I'm guessing most or all of the name change victims whether it's sports teams or long grain rice or whatever first came under any kind of national pressure at this time. That's when all the lefty counterculture shit started:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washin...me_controversy

And not one of these fucking teams or firms changed a thing. Not for half a century. But then all of a sudden they all do it in a period of a few months. They all make this pointless woke token gesture at the same time after resisting it for half a century. You know why? The calculation in the first fifty years was that giving a tiny minority and their lefty liberal fellow travellers what they wanted would produce a Middle American backlash at the crazy lefty shit and it would cost them money. Think Bud Light. Then the George Floyd protests happen and everybody gets polling (almost all polling in America is done by corporations to find out what Americans think about their brands, the political stuff these polling companies do is often a loss leader) and they find out there's a huge sea change in American attitudes to race and social justice and whatever and that it's going to cost them money not to do it. So that's why they did it.

These gestures are not token gestures. They're gestures dictated by the single most important thing in America. Money and the making of money.

Since I'm watching Game Five of the World Series I can explain to you a little bit. And this isn't coming from this crazed lefty, this is coming from maybe the foremost expert on the American elite that there is. If there are any people more expert you can count them on the fingers of one hand, maybe even on the fingers of one finger.

I got to meet this guy watching the Yankees in a fancy box that a bank I used to work for had back in the day. Jeter, Bernie, Mariano. Long story short he was a personal banker for the bank's biggest customers. They deal with the bank directly through this guy. He's been looking after the banking and financial needs of America's elite since the seventies. And this guy knows everybody. He's still going now and has turned his job into a consultancy firm and his sons run it but he's still going in his eighties. It's easy to still do your job when it's all fancy restaurants, ball games, yacht clubs and so on. This guy is now advising and helping the sons and grandsons of guys he originally did the job for. He knows all the old money people all the way through to the new tech people too. And for a young twenty something from a godforsaken place in the north of England he helped fill in a lot of blanks about how the world works. And he's still doing that now. In the banking world everything is a trade. I'm trading information and expertise with him still after all this time.

And let me tell you one single thing that you need to know about America. Everything, and I mean every single thing at corporate and rich elite people level is informed and determined by money and the making of money. There's no great deep state conspiracy out there or lizard people secretly running things or anything like that. There's just a bunch of guys, over a thousand now who run everything who own everything who control everything. Almost everything. And these guys are not complicated people let me tell you. They're exactly like average Americans in that they want to make more money, they want to pay less in taxes on that money and they want to pass what they've made onto their kids without some government taking it off them. They want a country and a world where it's easy and safe and profitable to do business. And that's it.

Some of the people on this elite list are CEOs but the vast majority of CEO people are a notch down from the elite. These guys run the pancake syrup or long grain rice companies and they're changing names or whatever not as a token gesture but because their job is to increase profits and the share price and if they don't do that they'll get fired and maybe fall off the gravy train. Money and the making of money is their alpha and omega. They can technically be sent to prison for not making every cent they can for the businesses they run. They're judged on how well they've done every year by the people who own the stock and if they haven't done as well as expected they get replaced.

People like the family who own the Dr. Seuss estate have a slightly different calculus. They have wealth and want more and are managing an asset that's declining in value as the march of time produces more and more children's books and more competition for the product they own. So they're going to do what they can to squeeze every last dollar out of their intellectual property before it's worthless. Once it is they're going to have to manage on what they have and hope they can manage their money well enough so that it'll be generations before any of them are financially insecure to any extent. The idea that some of their descendants may have to work for a living at some point in the future will be enough to give them the vapours and they'll be doing everything they can to kick that can as far down the road as possible.

So these gestures are not token gestures. They're the most serious gestures you can possibly imagine. They're money gestures.

And I used the wrong Jewish Native American photograph yesterday.

How the hell did I forget this?

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You boil it all down to money, and that's great. I'm not disputing your point of view. But we're focusing on two different things. You're focusing on the effect. I'm focusing on the cause. Of course the CEO's of the world are going to cave to public pressure, if it endangers their bottom line. No one's arguing that.

My focus continues to be on the segment of society that all of a sudden has "developed a conscience" and is behind these name change demands. I couldn't care less about the CEO's. They're spineless in their own way... and will lean in any direction the winds blow, just like politicians. The driving force is always going to be a controlling segment of society. In this case the woke mob that thinks changing name brands and team names is going magically make problems go away. It's a mindless, transparent, shallow, B.S. way of thinking.

But yes... it's still the CEO's who cave and perform the name changes. I think that much is clear.

My disgust is with the "window-dressing", token-clamoring segment of society, who... it might be said... are as racist, sexist, and ethnic-biased as the best of 'em.

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If it's "public pressure" then it isn't a "woke mob" is it. Unless the majority of the general public is a woke mob. These guys are not spineless. They've spent half a century completely ignoring the woke mobs of their day. What they're not ignoring is majority opinion in America. The majority has gone all woke mate.

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Semantics.

Let's not call it a woke mob, then.

Here's the facts:

After decades of existence for some of these known brands and team names... "all of a sudden" they're now deemed offensive and must be changed. Never mind that nothing of substance is ever done by the government to truly alleviate the plight of the minorities. It's those damned syrup brand names that must be changed. :rolleyes: Doesn't matter who demanded it... who caved... why they caved... the economics involved... none of it. What matters is that these demands are viewed as misdirected, distracting, frivolous, tokenism, and lazy reaching for low-hanging fruit by some of us.

I look at the changing of the names of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's rice for example as steps in the right direction as frivolous and fluffy and Hollow as they are...at least it begins to raise consciousness and definitely makes some people feel better even if tragically no further progress is made thereafter and it was a token gesture it still is probably better than nothing at all due to the fact that it will make quite a few people feel better. I mean it's no more than maybe 1/10 of 1% of what actually needs to be done but it is still better than 0%

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Originally Posted by NoSavingByTheBell

I look at the changing of the names of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's rice for example as steps in the right direction as frivolous and fluffy and Hollow as they are...at least it begins to raise consciousness and definitely makes some people feel better even if tragically no further progress is made thereafter and it was a token gesture it still is probably better than nothing at all due to the fact that it will make quite a few people feel better. I mean it's no more than maybe 1/10 of 1% of what actually needs to be done but it is still better than 0%

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I do not know if you are being sarcastic but I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by NoSavingByTheBell

I look at the changing of the names of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's rice for example as steps in the right direction as frivolous and fluffy and Hollow as they are...at least it begins to raise consciousness and definitely makes some people feel better even if tragically no further progress is made thereafter and it was a token gesture it still is probably better than nothing at all due to the fact that it will make quite a few people feel better. I mean it's no more than maybe 1/10 of 1% of what actually needs to be done but it is still better than 0%

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I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree on the percentage part.

I think the percentage is closer to the equivalent of one Planck Length. No... make that one billionth of one Planck Length.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by NoSavingByTheBell

I look at the changing of the names of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's rice for example as steps in the right direction as frivolous and fluffy and Hollow as they are...at least it begins to raise consciousness and definitely makes some people feel better even if tragically no further progress is made thereafter and it was a token gesture it still is probably better than nothing at all due to the fact that it will make quite a few people feel better. I mean it's no more than maybe 1/10 of 1% of what actually needs to be done but it is still better than 0%

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I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree on the percentage part.

I think the percentage is closer to the equivalent of one Planck Length. No... make that one billionth of one Planck Length.

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Isn't that something like 10 to the -37 m?? 🤣🤣 Yeah it could be something like that actually I can definitely see that.

@Master no I wasn't being sarcastic, and glad you agree

[QUOTE=TitoFan;1649258]

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

You boil it all down to money, and that's great. I'm not disputing your point of view. But we're focusing on two different things. You're focusing on the effect. I'm focusing on the cause. Of course the CEO's of the world are going to cave to public pressure, if it endangers their bottom line. No one's arguing that.

My focus continues to be on the segment of society that all of a sudden has "developed a conscience" and is behind these name change demands. I couldn't care less about the CEO's. They're spineless in their own way... and will lean in any direction the winds blow, just like politicians. The driving force is always going to be a controlling segment of society. In this case the woke mob that thinks changing name brands and team names is going magically make problems go away. It's a mindless, transparent, shallow, B.S. way of thinking.

But yes... it's still the CEO's who cave and perform the name changes. I think that much is clear.

My disgust is with the "window-dressing", token-clamoring segment of society, who... it might be said... are as racist, sexist, and ethnic-biased as the best of 'em.

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If it's "public pressure" then it isn't a "woke mob" is it. Unless the majority of the general public is a woke mob. These guys are not spineless. They've spent half a century completely ignoring the woke mobs of their day. What they're not ignoring is majority opinion in America. The majority has gone all woke mate.

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Semantics.

Let's not call it a woke mob, then.

Here's the facts:

After decades of existence for some of these known brands and team names... "all of a sudden" they're now deemed offensive and must be changed. Never mind that nothing of substance is ever done by the government to truly alleviate the plight of the minorities. It's those damned syrup brand names that must be changed. :rolleyes: Doesn't matter who demanded it... who caved... why they caved... the economics involved... none of it. What matters is that these demands are viewed as misdirected, distracting, frivolous, tokenism, and lazy reaching for low-hanging fruit by some of us.

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There's nothing the government can do to significantly alter the problems that minorities face that they haven't already done given the demographic/voting makeup of the country. Things aren't going to change substantially in that respect in our lifetimes. In fact there's a good chance things will get worse. Here's one example why:

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/06/apo...ve-christians/

and the other example is the forthcoming wave of black Africans migrating to America. Regardless of the current situation in countries south of the border it looks like the flood of immigrants from the south will slow to a trickle and in a decade or three new workers will have to come from the only part of the world with explosive population growth and a surfeit of young people -- Africa. This is unlikely to improve race relations.

There is a lot of little stuff like this that can be done. People being constantly reminded of the past by rice and syrup and whatever is one little thing that's easy to change. Another is removal of Confederate monuments. The thing that got me about the monuments is that it turns out the majority of them weren't put up at the time, they were put up as a big fuck you by pissed off white people in the 1960s after the various civil rights bills were passed. I'd like to see those things put in museums rather than destroyed because they're definitely part of American history and heritage like their proponents say they are but not in the ways that they think they are. There should be a visible record of just how attitudes were in America towards black people even in the civil rights 1960s era. Especially in that era.

I just hope things don't get worse in the future but all signs point to them doing so unfortunately.

But there's nothing the government can do that they haven't already done given the circumstances. One party wants to do various stuff, the other party wants to reverse what has already been done. The GOP has demolished one of the 1960s civil rights bills, the voting rights act, which they've turned into Swiss cheese and they're going after the rest of the bills from that era in the future now they have the 6-3 Court. Even if the GOP weren't teying to wind things backwards what else could be done anyway? You can't change what's in peoples' hearts.

[QUOTE=Kirkland Laing;1649453]

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

You boil it all down to money, and that's great. I'm not disputing your point of view. But we're focusing on two different things. You're focusing on the effect. I'm focusing on the cause. Of course the CEO's of the world are going to cave to public pressure, if it endangers their bottom line. No one's arguing that.

My focus continues to be on the segment of society that all of a sudden has "developed a conscience" and is behind these name change demands. I couldn't care less about the CEO's. They're spineless in their own way... and will lean in any direction the winds blow, just like politicians. The driving force is always going to be a controlling segment of society. In this case the woke mob that thinks changing name brands and team names is going magically make problems go away. It's a mindless, transparent, shallow, B.S. way of thinking.

But yes... it's still the CEO's who cave and perform the name changes. I think that much is clear.

My disgust is with the "window-dressing", token-clamoring segment of society, who... it might be said... are as racist, sexist, and ethnic-biased as the best of 'em.

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If it's "public pressure" then it isn't a "woke mob" is it. Unless the majority of the general public is a woke mob. These guys are not spineless. They've spent half a century completely ignoring the woke mobs of their day. What they're not ignoring is majority opinion in America. The majority has gone all woke mate.

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Semantics.

Let's not call it a woke mob, then.

Here's the facts:

After decades of existence for some of these known brands and team names... "all of a sudden" they're now deemed offensive and must be changed. Never mind that nothing of substance is ever done by the government to truly alleviate the plight of the minorities. It's those damned syrup brand names that must be changed. :rolleyes: Doesn't matter who demanded it... who caved... why they caved... the economics involved... none of it. What matters is that these demands are viewed as misdirected, distracting, frivolous, tokenism, and lazy reaching for low-hanging fruit by some of us.

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There's nothing the government can do to significantly alter the problems that minorities face that they haven't already done given the demographic/voting makeup of the country. Things aren't going to change substantially in that respect in our lifetimes. In fact there's a good chance things will get worse. Here's one example why:

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/06/apo...ve-christians/

and the other example is the forthcoming wave of black Africans migrating to America. Regardless of the current situation in countries south of the border it looks like the flood of immigrants from the south will slow to a trickle and in a decade or three new workers will have to come from the only part of the world with explosive population growth and a surfeit of young people -- Africa. This is unlikely to improve race relations.

There is a lot of little stuff like this that can be done. People being constantly reminded of the past by rice and syrup and whatever is one little thing that's easy to change. Another is removal of Confederate monuments. The thing that got me about the monuments is that it turns out the majority of them weren't put up at the time, they were put up as a big fuck you by pissed off white people in the 1960s after the various civil rights bills were passed. I'd like to see those things put in museums rather than destroyed because they're definitely part of American history and heritage like their proponents say they are but not in the ways that they think they are. There should be a visible record of just how attitudes were in America towards black people even in the civil rights 1960s era. Especially in that era.

I just hope things don't get worse in the future but all signs point to them doing so unfortunately.

But there's nothing the government can do that they haven't already done given the circumstances. One party wants to do various stuff, the other party wants to reverse what has already been done. The GOP has demolished one of the 1960s civil rights bills, the voting rights act, which they've turned into Swiss cheese and they're going after the rest of the bills from that era in the future now they have the 6-3 Court. Even if the GOP weren't teying to wind things backwards what else could be done anyway? You can't change what's in peoples' hearts.

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I disagree that "There's nothing the government can do to significantly alter the problems that minorities face that they haven't already done given the demographic/voting makeup of the country."

That last qualifier (demographics/voting makeup) makes it very difficult, granted. But it's not impossible. It does require people thinking outside the box.

Disparities in educational opportunities lie at the core of the self-perpetuating economic gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. It's self-perpetuating why? Because it's based on the funding structure for public schools across the US.

• 47% - State government
• 45% - Local government
• 8% - Federal government

The bulk of these, of course, comes from income and property taxes in those areas. Voters in highly-taxed neighborhoods obviously aren't going to support any measure (or politician) that aims toward reducing this disparity, because most of these voters don't give a damn about the plight of poor neighborhoods.

But that doesn't mean that the system can't be looked at as a whole, and some tweaks considered to at least move toward the direction of equal opportunity.

The problem is that traditional government fixes are cookie-cutter, low-brain-usage type of solutions, like the hated quotas put forth by Affirmative Action initiatives. Again... I'm not saying there isn't a problem in hiring and discrimination upon hiring and promoting. I'm saying it takes politicians that are willing to roll up their sleeves and find some real, workable solutions. A 5-year old could put together some of these quotas on a napkin between his lunch time and recess.

Another hare-brained idea (in my opinion) is reparations. Another "masterpiece" thought up by some lazy politician who couldn't be bothered to take the time to think his idea through... along with all the impossible ramifications that come with it.

But that the government can do plenty to "alter the problems that minorities face" is a given, to me. If the US can put a man on the moon, I believe they can find solutions to the plight of minorities in the country. Yes, I know... it's all money driven. Palms get greased... lackeys get voted into positions of power... and the hamster wheel just keeps on going round and round.

The "forthcoming wave of black Africans migrating to America" is another story, and yes... sure to complicate matters even further. Interesting point.

I'm glad you mentioned the issue about the monuments and statues. That got me thinking about the topic again, and I did a little digging. It's a complex issue, and again... one that shouldn't be given cookie-cutter or broad-brush "solutions."

One huge such monument is Stone Mountain outside of Atlanta, Georgia. I personally visited this monument many years ago, and took a cable car up to its summit. At the time I just looked at it as a beautiful sculpture carved into the side of the mountain. Not being black, and not having the emotional baggage that blacks have regarding the nation's past, I didn't give it much thought about the fact that it is Confederate generals that are depicted on the sculpture. But then I found and read the following article.

https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com...brief-history/

"Stone Mountain: Carving Fact from Fiction"


Admittedly, that article changed my perspective on the monument. It's a very interesting read. Yes, the monument was begun in the 1910's, well before the Civil Rights movement of the 50's. But just the fact that the KKK had such a role in the creation of the monument is enough to change my opinion of it.

However, once you start going down that road, where does it end? Who's to decide what monuments/statues need to come down and which ones don't? Again... it's a complex issue that deserves lots of analysis and consideration by intelligent, sensitive, common sense people in positions of authority.

Years ago the University of Notre Dame decided to cover up murals that depicted Christopher Columbus in America. This came after pressure from critics which claimed they showed Native Americans in "stereotypical submissive poses." Never mind that the murals were created in the 1880's, and were "intended to encourage immigrants who had come to the U.S. during a period of anti-Catholic sentiment."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...murals-n961006


I found a NY Times article aptly titled: "Which Statues Need to Come Down? You Decide"

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...tues-quiz.html


Probably a good criteria is this: If the monument/statue was erected with the sole "fuck you" (as you put it) purpose of being spiteful to a group of people... then by all means get rid of it.

Otherwise, we should think long and hard before we start tearing down statues because they're "offensive to someone."

[QUOTE=TitoFan;1649533]

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

You boil it all down to money, and that's great. I'm not disputing your point of view. But we're focusing on two different things. You're focusing on the effect. I'm focusing on the cause. Of course the CEO's of the world are going to cave to public pressure, if it endangers their bottom line. No one's arguing that.

My focus continues to be on the segment of society that all of a sudden has "developed a conscience" and is behind these name change demands. I couldn't care less about the CEO's. They're spineless in their own way... and will lean in any direction the winds blow, just like politicians. The driving force is always going to be a controlling segment of society. In this case the woke mob that thinks changing name brands and team names is going magically make problems go away. It's a mindless, transparent, shallow, B.S. way of thinking.

But yes... it's still the CEO's who cave and perform the name changes. I think that much is clear.

My disgust is with the "window-dressing", token-clamoring segment of society, who... it might be said... are as racist, sexist, and ethnic-biased as the best of 'em.

---

If it's "public pressure" then it isn't a "woke mob" is it. Unless the majority of the general public is a woke mob. These guys are not spineless. They've spent half a century completely ignoring the woke mobs of their day. What they're not ignoring is majority opinion in America. The majority has gone all woke mate.

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Semantics.

Let's not call it a woke mob, then.

Here's the facts:

After decades of existence for some of these known brands and team names... "all of a sudden" they're now deemed offensive and must be changed. Never mind that nothing of substance is ever done by the government to truly alleviate the plight of the minorities. It's those damned syrup brand names that must be changed. :rolleyes: Doesn't matter who demanded it... who caved... why they caved... the economics involved... none of it. What matters is that these demands are viewed as misdirected, distracting, frivolous, tokenism, and lazy reaching for low-hanging fruit by some of us.

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There's nothing the government can do to significantly alter the problems that minorities face that they haven't already done given the demographic/voting makeup of the country. Things aren't going to change substantially in that respect in our lifetimes. In fact there's a good chance things will get worse. Here's one example why:

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/06/apo...ve-christians/

and the other example is the forthcoming wave of black Africans migrating to America. Regardless of the current situation in countries south of the border it looks like the flood of immigrants from the south will slow to a trickle and in a decade or three new workers will have to come from the only part of the world with explosive population growth and a surfeit of young people -- Africa. This is unlikely to improve race relations.

There is a lot of little stuff like this that can be done. People being constantly reminded of the past by rice and syrup and whatever is one little thing that's easy to change. Another is removal of Confederate monuments. The thing that got me about the monuments is that it turns out the majority of them weren't put up at the time, they were put up as a big fuck you by pissed off white people in the 1960s after the various civil rights bills were passed. I'd like to see those things put in museums rather than destroyed because they're definitely part of American history and heritage like their proponents say they are but not in the ways that they think they are. There should be a visible record of just how attitudes were in America towards black people even in the civil rights 1960s era. Especially in that era.

I just hope things don't get worse in the future but all signs point to them doing so unfortunately.

But there's nothing the government can do that they haven't already done given the circumstances. One party wants to do various stuff, the other party wants to reverse what has already been done. The GOP has demolished one of the 1960s civil rights bills, the voting rights act, which they've turned into Swiss cheese and they're going after the rest of the bills from that era in the future now they have the 6-3 Court. Even if the GOP weren't teying to wind things backwards what else could be done anyway? You can't change what's in peoples' hearts.

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I disagree that "There's nothing the government can do to significantly alter the problems that minorities face that they haven't already done given the demographic/voting makeup of the country."

That last qualifier (demographics/voting makeup) makes it very difficult, granted. But it's not impossible. It does require people thinking outside the box.

Disparities in educational opportunities lie at the core of the self-perpetuating economic gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. It's self-perpetuating why? Because it's based on the funding structure for public schools across the US.

• 47% - State government
• 45% - Local government
• 8% - Federal government

The bulk of these, of course, comes from income and property taxes in those areas. Voters in highly-taxed neighborhoods obviously aren't going to support any measure (or politician) that aims toward reducing this disparity, because most of these voters don't give a damn about the plight of poor neighborhoods.

But that doesn't mean that the system can't be looked at as a whole, and some tweaks considered to at least move toward the direction of equal opportunity.

The problem is that traditional government fixes are cookie-cutter, low-brain-usage type of solutions, like the hated quotas put forth by Affirmative Action initiatives. Again... I'm not saying there isn't a problem in hiring and discrimination upon hiring and promoting. I'm saying it takes politicians that are willing to roll up their sleeves and find some real, workable solutions. A 5-year old could put together some of these quotas on a napkin between his lunch time and recess.

Another hare-brained idea (in my opinion) is reparations. Another "masterpiece" thought up by some lazy politician who couldn't be bothered to take the time to think his idea through... along with all the impossible ramifications that come with it.

But that the government can do plenty to "alter the problems that minorities face" is a given, to me. If the US can put a man on the moon, I believe they can find solutions to the plight of minorities in the country. Yes, I know... it's all money driven. Palms get greased... lackeys get voted into positions of power... and the hamster wheel just keeps on going round and round.

The "forthcoming wave of black Africans migrating to America" is another story, and yes... sure to complicate matters even further. Interesting point.

I'm glad you mentioned the issue about the monuments and statues. That got me thinking about the topic again, and I did a little digging. It's a complex issue, and again... one that shouldn't be given cookie-cutter or broad-brush "solutions."

One huge such monument is Stone Mountain outside of Atlanta, Georgia. I personally visited this monument many years ago, and took a cable car up to its summit. At the time I just looked at it as a beautiful sculpture carved into the side of the mountain. Not being black, and not having the emotional baggage that blacks have regarding the nation's past, I didn't give it much thought about the fact that it is Confederate generals that are depicted on the sculpture. But then I found and read the following article.

https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com...brief-history/

"Stone Mountain: Carving Fact from Fiction"


Admittedly, that article changed my perspective on the monument. It's a very interesting read. Yes, the monument was begun in the 1910's, well before the Civil Rights movement of the 50's. But just the fact that the KKK had such a role in the creation of the monument is enough to change my opinion of it.

However, once you start going down that road, where does it end? Who's to decide what monuments/statues need to come down and which ones don't? Again... it's a complex issue that deserves lots of analysis and consideration by intelligent, sensitive, common sense people in positions of authority.

Years ago the University of Notre Dame decided to cover up murals that depicted Christopher Columbus in America. This came after pressure from critics which claimed they showed Native Americans in "stereotypical submissive poses." Never mind that the murals were created in the 1880's, and were "intended to encourage immigrants who had come to the U.S. during a period of anti-Catholic sentiment."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...murals-n961006


I found a NY Times article aptly titled: "Which Statues Need to Come Down? You Decide"

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...tues-quiz.html


Probably a good criteria is this: If the monument/statue was erected with the sole "fuck you" (as you put it) purpose of being spiteful to a group of people... then by all means get rid of it.

Otherwise, we should think long and hard before we start tearing down statues because they're "offensive to someone."

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Come clean is this Lyle? These are Lylesque mega-posts.

Nah bro. It's me. ;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Nah bro. It's me. ;D

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"Tito Big Chef"

by Bill Paxtom

He cooked up the plantains
Down by the sea
Mix it with roast pork
And Argentine chimichurri

He'll vote for The Don
Ain't talkin bout Trump
But The King of Promotions
Who pays sums in a lump

The big chef finishes his cooking
He throws the scraps at tiger woods
Or sometimes canelo Alvarez
But it's all good

HIs posts are quite similar now
To a tarheel's 😀