Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Alpha
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Alpha
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Originally Posted by
palmerq
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Alpha
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Batman
Hows about if we look at it as though for a one off fight then Brook would put on a good show against all of those listed, as he did with GGG, and he may even beat some of the named fighters.
However if he was to campaign full time at middleweight then the size difference and power of the bigger fighters would soon tell on his body and he would end up being broken down and having his career shortened?
Hows that sound lads? meet in the middle or something??
No, he would not win and i want an apology and an acceptance that i was right, otherwise I will keep on posting everyday.
How do you think Brook (who fought GGG) does against those middleweights you mentioned at the time GGG fought them?
Geale: lost his second fight after GGG to Cotto who started at 140. Quit again.
Rubio: fought the early part of his career at 154. Losing to guys like Jantuah & Ouma. His best win at 160 is an inexperienced Lemieux.
Wade: what he really done? I thought he lost to Soliman.
Monroe: again his record is pretty lacking. Doesn't have a big punch but has some decent skills.
Murray: this would probably be the toughest test of the guys you listed.
You think all those guys beat the Brook that fought GGG?
I think only Geale gets beaten because he was shot by that time the others beat Kell.
wade looked awful v golovkin, havent seen anything else of him though but he looked really really bad, almost as bad as prince charles martin S: I would think Brook would beat him.
Agreed and I think Brook would be able to handle Rubio. Monroe is a decent boxer but I think Kell is more than capable of beating him also.
Rubio lost to Jantuah and Ouma when they were at the top of their game at light middle.
Regardless of what you think I am sure GGG
would not say Brook was one of his best wins of his career, which is how this whole debate started. It was a scheduled fight and easy money.
Danny Jacobs said "the most notable guy on his resume by far is Kell Brook".
GGG said "I believe I will bring an amazing show, like a drama show. This is the biggest test for me because Kell is a true champion.
"It's the biggest test for me, absolutely."
It would be silly for GGG not to count Brook as one of his best wins after those statements leading into the fight.
Those remarks were made before the fight and part of the hype. GGG only said amazing show and drama because he could batter Brook around the ring. Immediately after he beat him he said he should stay at welterweight.
Danny was simply trying to disparage GGG's achievements.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Andy Lee summed it up I think "He (Brook) actually showed enough that he can compete at middleweight but it's just that Golovkin is a future hall of famer."
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Andy Lee summed it up I think "He (Brook) actually showed enough that he can compete at middleweight but it's just that Golovkin is a future hall of famer."
That was because he wanted to set up a big fight with the welterweight who he could beat and make some easy money. ;D
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Whatever happened to going through 154 first? Seems like the logical progression to me. Forget the perceived lack of names there... and the glitter at 160. You want to move in weight in a sport that requires 5-7 pound divisions? One step at a time, I would think. People have been regurgitating names from the past. Yes... lots of guys have made that welter to middle journey... including my all-time favorite Trinidad. Was pretty successful too, until he met up with Hopkins. But guys normally don't jump over divisions to face arguably the greatest middle of his generation. How to argue that you can hang with the middles, when you've never proven yourself at junior middle. This is part of the argument, IMO.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Alpha
Andy Lee summed it up I think "He (Brook) actually showed enough that he can compete at middleweight but it's just that Golovkin is a future hall of famer."
That was because he wanted to set up a big fight with the welterweight who he could beat and make some easy money. ;D
No he was wanting to secure a fight with GGG.
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Whatever happened to going through 154 first? Seems like the logical progression to me. Forget the perceived lack of names there... and the glitter at 160. You want to move in weight in a sport that requires 5-7 pound divisions? One step at a time, I would think. People have been regurgitating names from the past. Yes... lots of guys have made that welter to middle journey... including my all-time favorite Trinidad. Was pretty successful too, until he met up with Hopkins. But guys normally don't jump over divisions to face arguably the greatest middle of his generation. How to argue that you can hang with the middles, when you've never proven yourself at junior middle. This is part of the argument, IMO.
Like you said guys have done it (although gradually) and been successful. There's no reason to believe that Brook couldn't be as well. If Trinidad had of skipped 154 I think he still would have had success at 160. Inoue jumped 2 divisions and seven pounds to destroy the long reigning #1 guy at 115. Hopkins jumped 15 pounds to defeat the lineal champion at 175. Roy jumped almost 20 pounds to defeat a heavyweight belt holder. Also as I mentioned Napoles jumped to 160 to challenge the lineal middleweight champ before returning to 147. Marquez to Mayweather. Pac to De La Hoya. Spinks to Holmes and many many more. It's also hard to argue against as history has shown it time and again that it is possible. Like I said just becuase Brook lost to GGG doesn't mean he couldn't be competitive with other middleweights.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
I heard Lomachenko vs Salido II is set for the summer. Vasyl apparently demanded it.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Might be unpopular opinion but lets just be clear, Brook jumping up was more about him wanting to be as big a star than he thought himself a superior fighter than GGG. Initially at least and honestly cannot blame him. But he put gloves on him. Facing Spence immediately off may again be more heart than mind but it's more respectable than some pampered wanker demanding catch weights in an already absurd Jr division madness. To many it's a pit stop. Tito demolished his way to 160 legitimacy if you ask me. The joke was on the majority of "experts" who failed to acknowledge Hopkins all along though.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Might be unpopular opinion but lets just be clear, Brook jumping up was more about him wanting to be as big a star than he thought himself a superior fighter than GGG. Initially at least and honestly cannot blame him. But he put gloves on him. Facing Spence immediately off may again be more heart than mind but it's more respectable than some pampered wanker demanding catch weights in an already absurd Jr division madness. To many it's a pit stop. Tito demolished his way to 160 legitimacy if you ask me. The joke was on the majority of "experts" who failed to acknowledge Hopkins all along though.
That is all true but Brook has had some stinker defences after he impressively beat Porter. So the way I see it he cornered himself to take on these big challenges because he chose easy defences.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Brook defended his belt according to the IBF rules. The fact he didn't dump the belt and is willing to shrink himself back-down to face a man that is meant to be the second coming says it all (being entitled to 75% of the pot helps too).
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Might be unpopular opinion but lets just be clear, Brook jumping up was more about him wanting to be as big a star than he thought himself a superior fighter than GGG. Initially at least and honestly cannot blame him. But he put gloves on him. Facing Spence immediately off may again be more heart than mind but it's more respectable than some pampered wanker demanding catch weights in an already absurd Jr division madness. To many it's a pit stop. Tito demolished his way to 160 legitimacy if you ask me. The joke was on the majority of "experts" who failed to acknowledge Hopkins all along though.
Good post and good points all. The bolded statement is completely true and, although I've always been a big Brook fan and give him kudos for fighting respectably against GGG.... the truth of the matter is he JUMPED. He went directly from 147 to 160 with no tuneup fights... no fighting at 154... no facing someone at a slightly lower level than GGG. It was all about the "star impact", which is why many of us hesitate before trying to make Brook into something he's not..... a legitimate middleweight.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Might be unpopular opinion but lets just be clear, Brook jumping up was more about him wanting to be as big a star than he thought himself a superior fighter than GGG. Initially at least and honestly cannot blame him. But he put gloves on him. Facing Spence immediately off may again be more heart than mind but it's more respectable than some pampered wanker demanding catch weights in an already absurd Jr division madness. To many it's a pit stop. Tito demolished his way to 160 legitimacy if you ask me. The joke was on the majority of "experts" who failed to acknowledge Hopkins all along though.
Good post and good points all. The bolded statement is completely true and, although I've always been a big Brook fan and give him kudos for fighting respectably against GGG.... the truth of the matter is he JUMPED. He went directly from 147 to 160 with no tuneup fights... no fighting at 154... no facing someone at a slightly lower level than GGG. It was all about the "star impact", which is why many of us hesitate before trying to make Brook into something he's
not.....
a legitimate middleweight.
We're not saying that. We are saying Brook would be competitive at the weight and against the guys @Master listed.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
In the entire discussion I've never once judged Brook as a middleweight, only his performance against Golovkin in relation to Geale, Rubio, Wade, Monroe and Murray. He didn't fight Golovkin weighing 147, he weighed 160. His weight is IRRELEVANT to my argument. However, as he weighed 160 he was a verified middleweight for that particular contest. The past, present and future are utterly irrelevant, only what happened on the night. I don't care about "what ifs" only "what happened."
Repeat - I have only judged Brook's performance in relation to Geale, Rubio, Wade, Monroe and Murray (The 5 fighters @
Master chose).
The "official" scores are integral to the argument. To have success in a boxing match you need to land blows, to win rounds you need to be more impressive than your opponent in any particular three minutes.
So even if you claim "the punches didn't hurt," or "GGG let Brook punch him" they still REGISTERED far more successfully than Geale, Rubio, Wade, Monroe and Murray's did - hence Brook
WON ROUNDS.
No holes. No digging. It's called SOUND REASONING. Whether you think it or not (thankfully most forum members are not having problems understanding the point) it has more substance than
"Brook did better because Golovkin let him." "Brook didn't deserve the fight," "Brook only fought cos Eubank didn't," "Geale wasn't at his best," etc. All of which are moot points regarding this discussion.
It's sound logic except that you are giving weight to terrible score cards. Brook was being battered. Homer judges giving Brook rounds on the grounds he hadn't quit yet doesn't mean he was doing well.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
If Brook does beat Spence, he should tell Khan to go fuck himself.The World will be his Oyster.
Yes. Absolutely maddening that people care about a Brook/Khan fight. If Brook loses, fine. If Brook wins he has more important things to do. About 20 of them.
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Whatever happened to going through 154 first? Seems like the logical progression to me. Forget the perceived lack of names there... and the glitter at 160. You want to move in weight in a sport that requires 5-7 pound divisions? One step at a time, I would think. People have been regurgitating names from the past. Yes... lots of guys have made that welter to middle journey... including my all-time favorite Trinidad. Was pretty successful too, until he met up with Hopkins. But guys normally don't jump over divisions to face arguably the greatest middle of his generation. How to argue that you can hang with the middles, when you've never proven yourself at junior middle. This is part of the argument, IMO.
This is easy. 154 has tough matchups that don't earn. 6 foot, 6'2" guys that bring no money. Nobody is looking for that. That's why you get Canelo-weight
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
I heard Lomachenko vs Salido II is set for the summer. Vasyl apparently demanded it.
I'm not happy about this. Salido hasn't won a fight since 2014! I like Loma but same as I am with other top guys, I expect more. Get back only matters if the opponent still matters. They should have at least explored bigger fights before settling on this.
