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I have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
Beat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoQuote:
Originally Posted by antimoron
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
That proves judging P4P by "beat the man take his place" is about as flawed as you can get.
The real question is where was Antonio Margarito rated before the Miguel Cotto fight ? because im not even sure if he would of been in the top 20 P4P no offense.
I thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance UppercutI have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
HmmQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBeat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoQuote:
Originally Posted by antimoron
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Well to make up for the neg rep, i'm pos repping him because he was clearly joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_KI thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance UppercutI have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
Of course technique and style shouldn't be everthing. They go with longevity, quality of opposition etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by onoHmmQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBeat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Damn! You write some confusing stuff ono ;D
Who said Cotto should rank above Margarito? I missed that. :-\
In Margarito's case - he enhanced his standing among the top fighters in the world. He ranks higher than Cotto.
But as your own examples highlighted (before you went back to your original opinion :-\) taking the place of the fighter you defeated is highly flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
LOL Hilarious.
Yeah i confused myself actually. Forgot what the thread was even about in the end...;DQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterOf course technique and style shouldn't be everthing. They go with longevity, quality of opposition etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by onoHmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Damn! You write some confusing stuff ono ;D
Who said Cotto should rank above Margarito? I missed that. :-\
In Margarito's case - he enhanced his standing among the top fighters in the world. He ranks higher than Cotto.
But as your own examples highlighted (before you went back to your original opinion :-\) taking the place of the fighter you defeated is highly flawed.
Anyway yeah it's flawed...i didn't take into consideration what you pointed out (diaz beating pac and being #1 etc...)
But yeah providing there wasn't obvious exceptional circumstances in the defeat (complete fluke, losing several divisions outside your weight range etc...) i think it's justified.
All in all, i'd suggest judging each case on it's merit.
Fuck sake i've basically just repeated my last post again. :mad:
Yeah ignore me, you get my point anyway....i hope
;D
This is one of those cases where I can see everyone's point. Margie did beat Cotto, yet for some reason putting him @ number six p4p feels wrong. I can also see how some would feel he doesn't belong there at all.
Of course, when HitmanDon asked us to make our p4p list I had Arthur Abraham at number 10 so...:-\
I'll also add that a fighter who didn't rank anywhere near the top 20 was to somehow defrone the p4p king, i'd be hesitant at putting him at the top.
Jesus, if i backtrack anymore i'll be typing from the bathroom
I'm going
It's a fine rating... Cotto in most people's minds was the #3 or 4 guy... 6 is fine... Name 7 or 8 people in the world that can beat him P4P and there's your answer.;)
;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by onoWell to make up for the neg rep, i'm pos repping him because he was clearly joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_KI thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
My bad "Game," I though you were being serious. I'll positive rep you next chance I get.