How about Herrera beating Olivares twice...
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How about Herrera beating Olivares twice...
Totally agree with Mick here thats why i chose my picks carefully Salvador Sanchez was virtually unknown and everyone thought Danny Lopez would hit Salvador Sanchez's big jaw easily and would KO him inside of 4 thats why people were saying "Little Red" vs "Little Unknown" Danny Lopez had made 8 title defenses and had been KOing almost everybody but Salvador Sanchez outboxed Danny Lopez comfortably in both fights although Danny Lopez was more fired up for the rematch he still got counter punched and struggled to land his big bombs and yet again just like the 1st fight couldn't put effective pressure on..........Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
You see to me Jones was not unknown/unheralded.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboGood points Mick and well noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I think Barrera Jones and Mayorga Forrest fit the criteria though as take away Jones wins over Barrera and Mayorgas wins over Forrest and neither of them would have very much at all. Same would have been true for Rahman had he beaten Lewis a second time.
It's an interesting topic though I think, trying to think of a big name elite fighter who got beat by an unheralded fighter not once, but twice.
I reckon Forrest and Barrera losing to Mayorga and Jones are the best examples but you are far more familiar than me with older fighters so I'm sure there are several more.
Had Randy Turpin won the rematch with Sugar Ray that would have been another decent example, and maybe Ingemarr Johansson came close over Floyd Patterson, certainly he's only famous for beating Patterson.
Neither was Forrest or Moyarga at the time each won.
But I see your points.
Turpin-SRR would have possibly been the biggest.
Its the same with Carlos Monzon vs Nino Benvenuti Carlos Monzon just like Salvador Sanchez was virtually unknown and hadn't been on the world stage before where as Nino Benvenuti had been in there with some great fighters like Emile Griffith, Dick Tiger, and had been fighting at the world stage for years and Carlos Monzon stopped Nino Benvenuti with a devastating right hand in there 1st fight then just overwhelmed him early in there 2nd fight.
Greg Page vs Mark Willis certainly was a shocker Mark Willis was nothing more than a journeyman where as Greg Page was a skilled former Heavyweight Champion who had been praised by Muhammad Ali it certainly was a shocker seeing Greg Page losing to someone like Mark Willis.
Valerie Mahfood/Ann Wolfe to go to the females
Ann fought Valerie as a virtual unkown,Valerie was a former champ
On top of it Ann had lost their first meeting,now Ann is a legend in female boxing
Vuyani Bungu w x2 Kennedy Mckinney ??
Bramble wx2 Mancini ??
Nah Ice you're missing my question entirely. Monzon is one of the greatest middles of all time no way he can be considered unheralded.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTotally agree with Mick here thats why i chose my picks carefully Salvador Sanchez was virtually unknown and everyone thought Danny Lopez would hit Salvador Sanchez's big jaw easily and would KO him inside of 4 thats why people were saying "Little Red" vs "Little Unknown" Danny Lopez had made 8 title defenses and had been KOing almost everybody but Salvador Sanchez outboxed Danny Lopez comfortably in both fights although Danny Lopez was more fired up for the rematch he still got counter punched and struggled to land his big bombs and yet again just like the 1st fight couldn't put effective pressure on..........Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickYou see to me Jones was not unknown/unheralded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Neither was Forrest or Moyarga at the time each won.
But I see your points.
Turpin-SRR would have possibly been the biggest.
Its the same with Carlos Monzon vs Nino Benvenuti Carlos Monzon just like Salvador Sanchez was virtually unknown and hadn't been on the world stage before where as Nino Benvenuti had been in there with some great fighters like Emile Griffith, Dick Tiger, and had been fighting at the world stage for years and Carlos Monzon stopped Nino Benvenuti with a devastating right hand in there 1st fight then just overwhelmed him early in there 2nd fight.
To put it clearly the question I'm asking is 'What great fighters, i.e world champs p4p stars have lost TWICE to a fighter who apart from beating the said star had an unspectacular career.
We see that it's quite common in boxing for a relative underachiever or under performer to sensationally beat one of boxings bests, for example Rahman KO'ing Lewis, but I wanted to know specifically had there been any examples of a relatively unheralded fighter (on a world stage) beating a fighter and then against the odds beating them again.
Monzon in now way shape or form qualifies as he went on to be arguable the greatest middleweight of all time.
But both Mayorga and Jones fit the criteria perfectly. Both fighters entire resume's stand on their performances against Barrera and Forrest, they are simply not known to the boxing public at large except in relation to those wins.
Randy Turpin would have been another after his shock win over Robinson but he lost (albiet only just) the rematch so doesn't qualify.
So that's it in a nutshell, are there any other DOUBLE winners where an otherwise unremarkable fighter (and both Jones and Mayorga would be considered completely unremarkable in an elite sense) sensationally beat a great fighter not once, but two times, winning the rematch as well?
I think so far Jones and Mayorga are clearly the best examples........
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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
again TM I'm not talking about upsets I'm talking about otherwise journeyman fighters who are famous for beating a great fighter two times.
Ann Wolf is now a superstar of womans boxing so she doesnt qualify at all.
I'm on about perennial underachievers, or those who never in their entire career became 'great' but against the odds scored not one but TWO wins over a fighter who was considered great.
Mayorga beating p4p star Forrest twice is a definite one, Jones twice beating p4p all time great Barrera is another.
Take away Jones wins over Barrera and Mayorga's wins over Forrest and they are entirely unremarkable. Those wins were sensational and unlikely and I want to know how many more like that there have been in history.
But the time Wolf was a 5-1 nobody,who Mahfood had allready beaten,fighting against an ex-champQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
again TM I'm not talking about upsets I'm talking about otherwise journeyman fighters who are famous for beating a great fighter two times.
Ann Wolf is now a superstar of womans boxing so she doesnt qualify at all.
I'm on about perennial underachievers, or those who never in their entire career became 'great' but against the odds scored not one but TWO wins over a fighter who was considered great.
Mayorga beating p4p star Forrest twice is a definite one, Jones twice beating p4p all time great Barrera is another.
Take away Jones wins over Barrera and Mayorga's wins over Forrest and they are entirely unremarkable. Those wins were sensational and unlikely and I want to know how many more like that there have been in history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyBut the time Wolf was a 5-1 nobody,who Mahfood had allready beaten,fighting against an ex-champQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
again TM I'm not talking about upsets I'm talking about otherwise journeyman fighters who are famous for beating a great fighter two times.
Ann Wolf is now a superstar of womans boxing so she doesnt qualify at all.
I'm on about perennial underachievers, or those who never in their entire career became 'great' but against the odds scored not one but TWO wins over a fighter who was considered great.
Mayorga beating p4p star Forrest twice is a definite one, Jones twice beating p4p all time great Barrera is another.
Take away Jones wins over Barrera and Mayorga's wins over Forrest and they are entirely unremarkable. Those wins were sensational and unlikely and I want to know how many more like that there have been in history.
Yes but that is not the question I'm asking. I'm not asking about upsets.
What got me thinking was Lewis's KO defeat to Rahman and Wlads ko loss to Brewster. Both were beaten in huge upsets but both came back to KO their opponents.
I wondered how many times in history had a fighter lost by sensational upset, and then fought a rematch and against the odd lost again?
To my mind Barrera losing twice to Jones and Forrest losing twice to Mayorga are the best examples of this.
Randy Turpin almost pulled off the biggest upset of all because he nearly beat Robinson the second time around as well but Sugar Ray pulled it out the bag so he doesn't count.
Obviously Ann Wolfe went on to do great things so doesn't fit the criteria of the question that I asked.
If Wolfe would have beaten her, and then beaten her again, and then gone on to have an entirely mediocre and uninspired career she would have qualified but she didn't so she doesn't ;)
So far I think it's Jones and Mayorga who best fit the bill. Both won world titles but were unspectacular champions and not expected to beat elite fighters. Although Jones I feel was a little better, he did go on to beat Tom Johnson after all.
Mayorga on the other hand has no other big name win on his record. He won his belt against Andrew six head Lewis, a paper champ if ever there was and has lost to every name fighter he's ever fought, Tito, Oscar, Spinks etc but he got those two wins over an absolute prime Vernon Forrest who at that time was considred to be in the p4p top 10.
Mayorga did go on to beat Vargas, but that really was a badly past his prime Vargas and so doesn't really add a great deal to Mayorga's resume.
So anyway, are there any other big double fight upsets against established champs along the same lines as Mayorga and Jones?
And remember I'm not talking about one off upsets, of which there are hundreds, I'm talking about the underdog winning BOTH the first fight AND the rematch. :)
One could make a case for Rahman-Maskaev.
Ivan Robinson Vs. Arturo Gatti x 2........this one always blows me away.I thought Gatti would finish what Cardona started but more suprising was Ivan standing in and going hell bent in an awesome slug fest.
Ivan Robinson would of been stopped in the 1st fight had it been 12 rounds he was out on his feet but i've seen a few of his fights he looked like a good skilled fighter quite suprised he didn't achieve more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Gatti was fighting Jr.Flys ?;D. Robinson really shocked me that night...He was a solid boxer but that night,they needed a phone booth,great fight.......another fighter in a long line that have held on way to long staying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIvan Calderon would of been stopped in the 1st fight had it been 12 rounds he was out on his feet but i've seen a few of his fights he looked like a good skilled fighter quite suprised he didn't achieve more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Robinson had a habit all through his career of taking fights he really wasnt ready forQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsGatti was fighting Jr.Flys ?;D. Robinson really shocked me that night...He was a solid boxer but that night,they needed a phone booth,great fight.......another fighter in a long line that have held on way to long staying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIvan Calderon would of been stopped in the 1st fight had it been 12 rounds he was out on his feet but i've seen a few of his fights he looked like a good skilled fighter quite suprised he didn't achieve more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Yea i corrected it just noticed my mistake i just watched an Ivan Calderon fight so he was still on my mind but i remember they were comparing that fight to Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Cesar Chavez which is a good comparison Robinson used good combinations and boxed well on the outside but often exchanged much more than he had to and had it been 12 rounds we would of seen another Taylor vs Chavez like comeback/ending but without the controversy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsGatti was fighting Jr.Flys ?;D. Robinson really shocked me that night...He was a solid boxer but that night,they needed a phone booth,great fight.......another fighter in a long line that have held on way to long staying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIvan Calderon would of been stopped in the 1st fight had it been 12 rounds he was out on his feet but i've seen a few of his fights he looked like a good skilled fighter quite suprised he didn't achieve more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins