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Casamayor became THE MAN after beating Diego Corrales.
Diaz has NEVER been THE MAN - which means Campbell's victory over him means he's NEVER been THE MAN either (how stupid is this stuff ;D)
I agree with your formlines though. I don't think Casamayor had been the top lightweight for a good while. ;)
I think we clearly both agree in reality. Marquez as champ is the 'correct' decision, but it's not the accurate decision reflecting reality is what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
This man who beat the man stuff is kind of stupid as well though.
I mean what happens if Marquez retired whilst still champ, who would be the man then? Or would we never have a ring champ in the lightweight division again?
I think it's nice to trace the lineage of the championship but in reality to stick to it rigidly means that the rankings get as ridiculous as the alphabet way of doing things.
According to your reasoning once a fighter becomes THE man then there is no possible way, other than defeat for him to lose that status.
Imo being inactive for well over a year and then getting dominated in your first fight back should be enough to have you relegated from being THE man, especially when in your abscence another undefeated fighter has picked up 3 of the 4 recognised belts in your division.
Casa may have been THE man according to lineararity but he was simply DONE according to all other boxing rating criterea :p
I have some problems with the whole lineal idea, I really don't care about it even slightly actually, but if you want to go ahead and call him the man cause of that fine but Nate's win over Diaz was clearly more impressive. I'm not even sure if that's debatable, Casa hasn't looked good for years.
I've been agreeing with Bilbo a lot lately :D
The lineal championship I agree with. I think Marquez fought the real champ last night and Campbell is #2. So obviously we have to make a Campbell Marquez fight right ? Well hopefully.
I'd love to see this fight and then the winner take on Pac and I think lose to Pac!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez. ;)
They definitely need to fight each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!
Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?
That makes no sense to me at all.
That's why I went with......
1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!
I can't wait to see how this falls out.
I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.
Forget the carnival trinkets and shiny things.I'm pretty conflicted on this.In a head to head match up and based on most recent preformances.....I really think Marquez is just too sharp and down the middle all around for Campbell.
But,I consider Campbell to be numero uno,Marquez 2nd,and Pac 3rd. ???what do we base it on.....# of belts ?Quality of opposition in respected division?Time at that weight and fight by fight quality?Then again,does one Casamayor battering win = wins over Juan Diaz,Kid Diamond,Quiles (ugh),Hlatswayo,Matt Zegan...Huh?,Oh and a loss to Lorenzo,who was just bludgeoned by Humberto Soto ?
Then again x 2.....Marquez is a P4P top tier fighter with out question......and is fresh off two ,some would say solidly,even up fights with the #1 P4P fighter today,Manny Pacquiao?3rd then again ...Awwwh nevermind :bucktooth:
They need to fight,bottom line!!
My exact the same sentiment/stand as posted on the other thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThey definitely need to fight each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!
Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?
That makes no sense to me at all.
That's why I went with......
1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!
I can't wait to see how this falls out.
I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.
1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
You can also add the argument on how these guys win over the fallen champs...
- Pacquiao totally dominated David Diaz before the 9th round stoppage
- Campbell dominated Juan
- JMM and Casa fought a close fight until the time of 11th round stoppage
.
I think the fairest case is to make the title of Ring Champion vacant like it is for the heavyweights.
Let's face, the Ring doesn't regard Wlad as the Ring champ yet still deciding to leave the title vacant.
I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that Marquez, Campbell or Manny have a better claim to the lightweight title than Wlad has to the heavyweight title, Marquez beating a washed up, inactive champ who clearly and undisputedly lost his title over a year ago to anyone with eyes just doesn't cut it as being Championship worthy imo.
The three of them HAVE to duke it out, period, that's the only way to get a champ. Until then the division is in a three way fracture.
Marquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!
Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.
The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!
Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!
Some of you guys made me laugh. If Pacman beats up a 29-34 year old fighter, he is branded as fighting oldies and past their prime. If Marquez beats up a 37 year old fighter he should be number 1.. What the hell??? If Pac moves up and beat a recognize belt holder he is branded as fighting the weakest champion (as the case against D. Diaz). But if Marquez beats up and win the fraud belt of Casa(fraud coz it was a gift from Santa Cruz) he is the greatest???? You guys are really funny here, like the way you don't give credit to campbell's accomplishment. Campbell beats up a PRIME+MULTIPLE BELT HOLDER fighter. Campbell should be above Pacman and Marquez. Don't reason out like Marquez beat the man who beat Campbell before.. Hey the man who beat Campbell before was a fresher Casa not a 37yr old Casa. If you consider this kind of reasoning, heres another one, Pac beat D.Diaz who knock Santa Cruz out who win on most peoples eye but lost to Casa in a controversial decision. Its sucks right... Lets just wait who clean up the division but for the mean time i give Campbell his credit and rank as the man of the lightweight. He may be a weak champ with many L on his resume but has the credential and wins against credible champs as of press time.
I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyMarquez beat the linear champ something Wlad has never done! When Vitali retired the championship became vacant. Since Wlad became ranked #1 he has never fought the #2 guy which would fill the vacancy. Wlad is definitely the #1 heavy but he ain't the champion!!! Marquez is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Look at the history of the sport no champion has derserved every victory they recieved but you have to follow the offical decision no matter how much we disagree with it or we run the risk of becoming as incompetent as the alphabet idiots!
Like the ring says "Championships should be won & lost in the ring!" not just awarded because we think someone is better! Thats why they fight the fights.
The best fighter in the division is not always the champion or else the title would never change hands!
Marquez is definitely the champion at 135!!!
But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.
For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.
Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.
Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.
So Marquez for me is at number 3.
Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.
I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.
but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.
He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.
NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.
Hope that clears it up :)
[QUOTE=Galaxy;598025]Exactly. Marquez might well be the third-best fighter in the division (or even the fourth best after Juan Diaz), but he's still the champ because he beat the champ. Campbell is unquestionably the #1 contender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Nate's a great fighter, he handily conquered the guy who everyone thought was the cream of the division, and he'd probably be a favorite against JMM if (hopefully when) they fight, but none of that makes him the champ.
As for Pac, considering his next fight is at welterweight, why worry about him? If he was seriously interested in being the #1 lightweight, he could have pushed for a fight against Casamayor or Campbell. Instead he's going for a big payday with ODLH, and hey, good for him, but worry about where he ranks when he decides to pick a division to hang around in.