P4P bias towards American based fighters?

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

In the minority here,but I think p4p ranking are mostly subjective and a bit useless,I cant stand them.They often dispay the "out of sight,out of mind" mentality that many lower weight class fighters suffer from.Simply because we (American based media ?) have not seen a fighter on a regular basis,should that exclude them from consideration?P4P can be a popularity/familiarity contest.Chris john is making his stateside big show splash with Rocky "tons o' chances" Juarez next fight.A big win will put him in the conversation.

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I'm with you Spicoli.

P4P is nonsense. I'm certain it is more popularity than anything else. And it clearly has no use at all if completely favouring a particular group.

So much weight is put in it though :-\

Well.... there are currently only 2 US fighters in the Top ten lists. So I don't know where you're getting bias toward Americans.

Certainly Chris John should be ranked above JMM, if you accept that he lost;) I believe he'll get some recognition if he beats Juarez convincingly or gets a decisive win in a good fight. One thing for sure if he wins, is he'll be setup to make a lot more money in his next fight. Isn't that what it's really all about? Even the Philippino crowd will back him since there isn't a way for him

Is there really a non-bias way to rank a P4P fighter with active fighters? You could have a polling system like in American College Football, but then it wouldn't be authoritative to those that come up with P4P list so then they wouldn't like it.

They do give us a broad general feel for the most prominent and current fighters (?).maybe just not the most accurate reflection of "best fighter" & Thats where it gets full of spotty definitions.It really can be a mind melt.Has to be a complete balance of Competition faced,consitancy,and all around skillset I suppose.By definition,Skillset should be at the top but it gets blurry.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Less then half of the list is everyone but Americans....

Pacquiao, Hatton, Vazquez, Munoz, Darchinyan, Doniare, etc are not American and they are all mainstays...Hell the liost changes every month...

Not too long ago the only Americans were Hopkins and Pavlik,

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No i said American based not specifically Americans.

Pac, Hatton, Vazquez etc.. have all fought in or beaten American based fighters.

I can't find a non-American based fighter in The Ring's top ten. This is understandable considering it is an American publication but still....

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And you never will... Unless there is a Promoter(s) to come out of "Asia" to tie up with "American based" Promoter(s) on a permanent basis. I think it makes perfect sense in a world economy but who is going to do it?

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

Well.... there are currently only 2 US fighters in the Top ten lists. So I don't know where you're getting bias toward Americans.

Certainly Chris John should be ranked above JMM, if you accept that he lost;) I believe he'll get some recognition if he beats Juarez convincingly or gets a decisive win in a good fight. One thing for sure if he wins, is he'll be setup to make a lot more money in his next fight. Isn't that what it's really all about? Even the Philippino crowd will back him since there isn't a way for him

Is there really a non-bias way to rank a P4P fighter with active fighters? You could have a polling system like in American College Football, but then it wouldn't be authoritative to those that come up with P4P list so then they wouldn't like it.

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I don't know where you got that from either.

I never said that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

They do give us a broad general feel for the most prominent and current fighters (?).maybe just not the most accurate reflection of "best fighter" & Thats where it gets full of spotty definitions.It really can be a mind melt.Has to be a complete balance of Competition faced,consitancy,and all around skillset I suppose.By definition,Skillset should be at the top but it gets blurry.

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I agree, but this is also where I believe promoter(s) get it wrong! If they concentrated on the truth, boxing would be far better off. The integrity of the sport gets to the point where people look at it with the same creditability as Professional Wrestling. The only place P4P rankings can truly be accepted is when a fighter is part of history or he is so far set above the rest he is a living legend. Greed is just too powerful and while I agree that the sport needs mega fights I also believe the sport would have an even greater following if it were more transparent.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

Well.... there are currently only 2 US fighters in the Top ten lists. So I don't know where you're getting bias toward Americans.

Certainly Chris John should be ranked above JMM, if you accept that he lost;) I believe he'll get some recognition if he beats Juarez convincingly or gets a decisive win in a good fight. One thing for sure if he wins, is he'll be setup to make a lot more money in his next fight. Isn't that what it's really all about? Even the Philippino crowd will back him since there isn't a way for him

Is there really a non-bias way to rank a P4P fighter with active fighters? You could have a polling system like in American College Football, but then it wouldn't be authoritative to those that come up with P4P list so then they wouldn't like it.

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I don't know where you got that from either.

I never said that. ;)

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My Bad, I guess... I just read the thread title as a statement, rather than a question for the content of the thread, I apologize...

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by fan johnny

Well.... there are currently only 2 US fighters in the Top ten lists. So I don't know where you're getting bias toward Americans.

Certainly Chris John should be ranked above JMM, if you accept that he lost;) I believe he'll get some recognition if he beats Juarez convincingly or gets a decisive win in a good fight. One thing for sure if he wins, is he'll be setup to make a lot more money in his next fight. Isn't that what it's really all about? Even the Philippino crowd will back him since there isn't a way for him

Is there really a non-bias way to rank a P4P fighter with active fighters? You could have a polling system like in American College Football, but then it wouldn't be authoritative to those that come up with P4P list so then they wouldn't like it.

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I don't know where you got that from either.

I never said that. ;)

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My Bad, I guess... I just read the thread title as a statement, rather than a question for the content of the thread, I apologize...

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No worries mate.

I'm truly interested if someone can find a name? This is worse than i thought :-\

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

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I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

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Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

Wonjongkam was in the P4P ratings from 25 Jan 05 - 12 Jun 06. Pretty sure he'd qualify as non-American based.

As for John I don't think he has a case. Sure he got the win over Marquez but he has done nothing since!

Just cause you beat a P4Pr doesn't mean you make the list. Look at Darchinyan... he beat Mijares who was on the P4P list but didn't get listed.

Same with Spinks when he defeated Mayorga who was ranked at the time.

There are only 10 spots & there are guys like Williams & Darchinyan who imo deserve to be ranked ahead of John! But that the thing with P4P its all debatable!!!

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Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

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I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

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Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

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Yeah that's basically what I meant, although I was more specifically thinking of some of the guys with Sauerland but those mentioned have kind of done the same thing, although they have all faced class opposition at some point.

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Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

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I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

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Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

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I'm pretty sure Calzaghe didn't face many mandatories. Can you name them? And it's no different to what Hopkins was doing with his IBF title, right?

Kessler has had two fights since Calzaghe beat him. Before that he was trying to unify the titles.

Since beating Marquez, John has beaten Rojas - the guy that KO'd current Ring P4P no.10 Caballero.

P4P ranked Kelly Pavlik fought "crap" mandatrory Gary Lockett last year. P4P Cotto fought Gomez? P4P fighters face "crap" too... but it's not always clear why they get the rating ;)

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Wonjongkam was in the P4P ratings from 25 Jan 05 - 12 Jun 06. Pretty sure he'd qualify as non-American based.

As for John I don't think he has a case. Sure he got the win over Marquez but he has done nothing since!

Just cause you beat a P4Pr doesn't mean you make the list. Look at Darchinyan... he beat Mijares who was on the P4P list but didn't get listed.

Same with Spinks when he defeated Mayorga who was ranked at the time.

There are only 10 spots & there are guys like Williams & Darchinyan who imo deserve to be ranked ahead of John! But that the thing with P4P its all debatable!!!

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Good stuff, Galaxy. How do you know the dates? Have you got a link?

I'm not championing John as a P4P fighter. I'm using him as an example because he's a non-American based fighter that doesn't get a look in, even though his record/results deserve consideration.

Beating a P4P fighter means NOTHING.. theres plenty of cases over the past couple of years to prove that.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Wonjongkam was in the P4P ratings from 25 Jan 05 - 12 Jun 06. Pretty sure he'd qualify as non-American based.

As for John I don't think he has a case. Sure he got the win over Marquez but he has done nothing since!

Just cause you beat a P4Pr doesn't mean you make the list. Look at Darchinyan... he beat Mijares who was on the P4P list but didn't get listed.

Same with Spinks when he defeated Mayorga who was ranked at the time.

There are only 10 spots & there are guys like Williams & Darchinyan who imo deserve to be ranked ahead of John! But that the thing with P4P its all debatable!!!

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Good stuff, Galaxy. How do you know the dates? Have you got a link?

I'm not championing John as a P4P fighter. I'm using him as an example because he's a non-American based fighter that doesn't get a look in, even though his record/results deserve consideration.

Beating a P4P fighter means NOTHING.. theres plenty of cases over the past couple of years to prove that.

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Sorry Fenster I ain't got a link as the Ring website doesn't keep archives of their weekly rankings. But I've got copies of every weekly ratings since their website has been up & running. But if you have any of the Ring issues around that time he'll appear in their monthly ratings. He was not removed due to a defeat... When Taylor beat Hopkins it pushed him out.

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.