Marciano and Generational Bias

You can only compare marciano to cruiserweights, unless your willing to give him at least the average size and weight of today's heavyweights. Most heavyweights of yesteryear are way below even the average heavyweight's height, weight, reach stats today. Give heavyweights of yesteryear more height, weight and reach and add on training techniques, video and nutrition and i'm sure they'd do quite well.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Aside from some evolutionaty factors, the heavweight division is the only one that has been variable--as fighters get bigger and bigger. The other weight classes have remained fixed.

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That is true, but the additioin of additional divisions such as SuperMiddle, Cruiser etc. has removed fighters that in the past would have been relatively small/large at a particular weight.

Marciano stands up pretty well against the Cruiserweight division. But then again, the Cruiserweight division has, for the most part, lacked inspiration.

Not many fighters have stamped their authority on this division and alot of fighters are old Light Heavyweights, or kids saving up to be Heavyweights.

However, you can only dominate what is infront of you and as we know Rocky did that with no problem.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Aside from some evolutionaty factors, the heavweight division is the only one that has been variable--as fighters get bigger and bigger. The other weight classes have remained fixed.

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That is true, but the additioin of additional divisions such as SuperMiddle, Cruiser etc. has removed fighters that in the past would have been relatively small/large at a particular weight.

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Point taken

I have no problem saying that Rocky Marciano would have been the greatest cruiser weight of all time, including beating the Holyfield that was undisputed champ (and even David Haye.)

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Yes

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I certainly wouldn't compare him to Ali. Ali lost what- 5 fights? Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down, Bugner fought both Ali and Frasier (combined, a total of 39 rounds) and neither could put him down.

I think those of you pining for Ali and Frasier are fooling yourselves, they were not invincible.

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Yes

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I certainly wouldn't compare him to Ali. Ali lost what- 5 fights?

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You're right I wouldn't compare Marciano to Ali. Ali past his prime beat HW legends in their prime while Marciano in his prime beat great fighters that were shot, old, or both. Marciano's greatest victory was beating a shot 37 year old Joe Louis. And how old were Walcott, Charles, Moore when Marciano fought them?

Marciano's fans act like he beat a prime Louis, Moore, Charles, Walcott, when those guys were all old/shot.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

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And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

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Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime:-\

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

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And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

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Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime:-\

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

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Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by holmcall

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

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Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime:-\

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

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Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

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I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime:-\

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

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Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

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I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

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Me too!!

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

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I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

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Me too!!

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Who come out on top in that Super six though? :-\

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

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Me too!!

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Who come out on top in that Super six though? :-\

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I respect Rocky Marciano and normally defend him, when people call him overrated and ETC. But against some of the modern greats at Light Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, he would lose to most of them. He just hasn't got the skills, speed, athletism, to hang with people like James Toney, Roy Jones Jr.

You never know who is going to win until you get them in the ring.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

Generational Bias

I have always adhered to two principles. The first one is to train hard
and get in the best possible physical condition. The second is to forget all about the other fellow until you face him in the ring and the bell sounds for the fight.
–Rocky Marciano

The latest is the greatest
–Anonymous
　
I loved Rocky Marciano for any number of reasons not the least of
which is that he was from my era and my generation. That he was an Italian didn’t hurt much either. I also thought he was a great fighter who did what he had to do against everyone they put in from of him. After all, 49-0 is a perfect record.
　
Of course, looking through the prism of nostalgia makes everything
seem better and I like to play out old school memories just like
other old timers. However, I also try to be thoughtful and objective
when making comparisons between the past and the present–and that’s where the issue of generational prejudice comes in (some call it “era” prejudice). And that’s where comparisons between The Rock and modern fighters come in as well.
　
Should he be compared to recent heavyweights in the mold of Ali,
George Foreman or Wladimir Klitschko? Of course not. He simply was not big enough, but how about comparing him to the likes of the following who fight at Cruiserweight (175-200 lb (90.72 kg):

O’Neil Bell
Enzo Maccarinelli
Vadim Tokarev
Jean Marc Mormeck
David Haye
Emmanuel Nwodo
Matt Godfrey
Steve Cunningham
Rico Hoye
Krzysztof Wlodarczyk
Marco Huck
Grigory Drozd
Pietro Aurino
Johnathon Banks
BJ Flores
Felix Cora Jr.
Dale Brown
Valery Brudov
Wayne Braithwaite
Guillermo Jones
Chris Bryd

Rocky fought at a disciplined 183-188 for the most part which places him in the middle of the cruiserweight limit. Looking back, how would he have done against guys like Marvin Camel, Lee Roy Murphy, Carlos Deleon, Dwight Braxton, Boone Pultz, Ralf Rocchigiani Bobby Czyz, Orlin Norris, Fabrice Tiozzo, Vassily Jirov, Virgil Hill, and James Toney? Perhaps the best matches would have been against Evander Holyfield (when he was a cruiserweight champion) and Dariuz Michalczewski.

When I compare Marciano to the top cruiserweights, I am comparing
apples to apples except for the difference in era. The task, however, is to engage facts before nostalgia. The lesson is to take into account all essential variables when making comparisons between old and modern. Variable such as number of fights, era (for example, the 70‘s were a great time for heavyweights and the 80‘s for middleweights), stamina, training techniques and methodology, records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work,quality of opposition, management, etc.

When this is done, myth is stripped away from facts. When this is done, you are not engaging generational prejudice. Of course, I must confess when I do this; Rocky Marciano quickly becomes the greatest cruiserweight in history.
　

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Great statement mate,and i have to agree with the point.Marciano was a relentless raw breed of cruiser and heavy weight fighter there ever was.