Marciano and Generational Bias

[holmcall]

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

[generalbulldog]

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

Like I said he was a great HW, just not the greatest and his opposition wasn't that good. You list guys like Charles, Walcott, Moore, and the great Joe Louis. But what age and condition were they in when Marciano beat them?

Charles was around 38 or 39 with many ring wars same with Walcott and Moore who started his career at middleweight that went on to become a great LHW. And Joe Louis was 37 and a shot fighter when he fought Marciano. Does that victory even count? That's like Larry Holmes beating up on a 38 year old and shot Muhammad ALi. Hell even Larry Holmes fans don't even count that victory.

A lot of the Hall of Fame guys Marciano fought that supposedly made him the greatest HW were either shot or old as hell, let's put that in the equation too.

And let's be honest now the only great and in his prime HW that Marciano fought was Muhammad ALi and that wasn't even a real fight but a simulation that had him knocking out ALi! I mean that's pretty sad that the best fight Marciano was in was a simulation.

[awdleyfuturehalloffamer]

You can only compare marciano to cruiserweights, unless your willing to give him at least the average size and weight of today's heavyweights. Most heavyweights of yesteryear are way below even the average heavyweight's height, weight, reach stats today. Give heavyweights of yesteryear more height, weight and reach and add on training techniques, video and nutrition and i'm sure they'd do quite well.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Aside from some evolutionaty factors, the heavweight division is the only one that has been variable--as fighters get bigger and bigger. The other weight classes have remained fixed.

That is true, but the additioin of additional divisions such as SuperMiddle, Cruiser etc. has removed fighters that in the past would have been relatively small/large at a particular weight.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Marciano stands up pretty well against the Cruiserweight division. But then again, the Cruiserweight division has, for the most part, lacked inspiration.

Not many fighters have stamped their authority on this division and alot of fighters are old Light Heavyweights, or kids saving up to be Heavyweights.

However, you can only dominate what is infront of you and as we know Rocky did that with no problem.

[holmcall]

Aside from some evolutionaty factors, the heavweight division is the only one that has been variable--as fighters get bigger and bigger. The other weight classes have remained fixed.

That is true, but the additioin of additional divisions such as SuperMiddle, Cruiser etc. has removed fighters that in the past would have been relatively small/large at a particular weight.

Point taken

[Master]

I have no problem saying that Rocky Marciano would have been the greatest cruiser weight of all time, including beating the Holyfield that was undisputed champ (and even David Haye.)

[BIG H]

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

[holmcall]

I think another problem many people also have with Marciano is that his opposition wasn't that strong, they aren't going to get swayed by that undefeated record.

However he beat everyone in his path and took on all comers and you can only fight who's in front of you. He is an all time hw great, just not the greatest.

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

[BIG H]

And I'll be happy to argue the opposition point any time, because he fought the best they had out there. Guys like Phil Muscato, Rex Layne, Moore (IBHF), Charles (IBHF), Walcott (IBHF), Louis (IBHF), LaStarza (57-9), Harry Matthews (90-7-6), and many other rugged hombres.

It was a era where fighters continued to take on the top flight opposition right to the end of their careers.

Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

[holmcall]

Guys like Muscato, Layne & Matthews were good solid pros, but they don't add any weight to a resume for somebody claiming to be an ATG.

Moore is a great name, but he was a veteran of about 200 fights by that time

Walcott was at the end of his career and had already lost a tonne of fights by this time

Charles - Again a veteran of some 70 fights, but was still the best win on Marciano's record imo

I would have liked to see Marciano fight any of the 3 above during their prime

Maricano's opposition in terms of hs opponents win loss ratio is the worst of any of the so called great heavyweights (and the vast majority of the good ones)

He beat who was put in front of him and you can't knock an unbeaten record and I'm not syaing he was or wasn't the greatest, I'm just saying that we certainly can't use his resume as an argument in his favour.

Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

Me too!!

[BIG H]

Understood, but your dealing with what ifs, and I'm deaaling with whats--except when I make the argument at lighter weight which this is abouit.

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

Me too!!

Who come out on top in that Super six though?

[ICB]

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

Me too!!

Who come out on top in that Super six though?

I respect Rocky Marciano and normally defend him, when people call him overrated and ETC. But against some of the modern greats at Light Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, he would lose to most of them. He just hasn't got the skills, speed, athletism, to hang with people like James Toney, Roy Jones Jr.

[holmcall]

I would love to have seen Marciano versus these guys in their prime at Crusier - some great fights there....

Michael Spinks
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones Jnr

Me too!!

Who come out on top in that Super six though?

The Rock!!!!!!!!!