Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
It's always been my opinion that there are very few really golden eras on Heavyweight boxing. I think perhaps only 2 infact - The era of Ali, Foreman, Frazier & Norton and the era of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis & Tyson (although they were all at deifferent stages of careers and didn't all fight at thi time) There has always been 1 or 2 dominant fighters and then a lot of average to good contenders. I thnk the 'contenders' in the two era I mentioned were probably better than any other era including the current one. E.G Ray Mercer, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Razor Ruddock to name a few a far better than today's offering, outside of the Klits!
I would argue that a lot of these guys like Peter in shape, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers in shape, Chagaev, Ibragimov would do really well in any era of boxing. I think they could beat a lot of the guys from the 90's, and maybe even guys like Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson on the right night.
I think guys like Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are a new breed in boxing that simply have too much size and athleticism for them to lose baring poor preparation or a special punch landing. Wladimir used to be less defensively aware and he used to get caught with stupid punches considering his chin. I don't think its a bad thing he takes his lack of punch durability into account when he fights. Vitali looks awkward as hell, but he is undeniably effective.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
are you kidding me?
Let's get to the point...."I know you are but what am I?".....Infinity!
Infinity and 1
ha you cant beat it :lickish:
and dont say infinity and 2 coz it doesnt exist
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
It's always been my opinion that there are very few really golden eras on Heavyweight boxing. I think perhaps only 2 infact - The era of Ali, Foreman, Frazier & Norton and the era of Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis & Tyson (although they were all at deifferent stages of careers and didn't all fight at thi time) There has always been 1 or 2 dominant fighters and then a lot of average to good contenders. I thnk the 'contenders' in the two era I mentioned were probably better than any other era including the current one. E.G Ray Mercer, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Razor Ruddock to name a few a far better than today's offering, outside of the Klits!
I would argue that a lot of these guys like Peter in shape, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers in shape, Chagaev, Ibragimov would do really well in any era of boxing. I think they could beat a lot of the guys from the 90's, and maybe even guys like Holyfield, Bowe, and Tyson on the right night.
I think guys like Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are a new breed in boxing that simply have too much size and athleticism for them to lose baring poor preparation or a special punch landing. Wladimir used to be less defensively aware and he used to get caught with stupid punches considering his chin. I don't think its a bad thing he takes his lack of punch durability into account when he fights. Vitali looks awkward as hell, but he is undeniably effective.
I disagree Taeth, the Likes of Chambers, Peter, Chagaev etc would be pulverised by the likes of Mercer, Morrison Ruddock etc IMO. Christ, Chagaev got a very dodgy decision over Ruiz.
As for Lennox, he was a great HW but the 2 best names on his record were both past their best when he fought them. Now I always think Lewis-Tyson would be a tough one to call if you could put them in together prime for prime and I would probably still just swing for lennox but I think the Holyfield who battered Douglas or the man who beat Bowe in the rematch would have just been too good and too relentless for Lewis. IMO Evander should have called it a day after the Lennox fights and by now he would be regarded as the 3rd greatest HW of all time.
I'd love to be able to take a prime Muhammad Ali (whenever that was) and a 25 year old Foreman and put them in todays era. They would absolutely dominate IMO and Ali's speed, skill and accuracy would cause everyone including the Klits and Haye nightmares and Foremans Power would just knock all 3 clean out within 6 rounds each. Ali wasn't that bad a puncher either it's just it's overlooked a lot because it wasn't phenominal like his speed and skill and Foreman and Frazier were around Knocking everyone that moved out at the time too.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
I disagree Taeth, the Likes of Chambers, Peter, Chagaev etc would be pulverised by the likes of Mercer, Morrison Ruddock etc IMO. Christ, Chagaev got a very dodgy decision over Ruiz.
As for Lennox, he was a great HW but the 2 best names on his record were both past their best when he fought them. Now I always think Lewis-Tyson would be a tough one to call if you could put them in together prime for prime and I would probably still just swing for lennox but I think the Holyfield who battered Douglas or the man who beat Bowe in the rematch would have just been too good and too relentless for Lewis. IMO Evander should have called it a day after the Lennox fights and by now he would be regarded as the 3rd greatest HW of all time.
I'd love to be able to take a prime Muhammad Ali (whenever that was) and a 25 year old Foreman and put them in todays era. They would absolutely dominate IMO and Ali's speed, skill and accuracy would cause everyone including the Klits and Haye nightmares and Foremans Power would just knock all 3 clean out within 6 rounds each. Ali wasn't that bad a puncher either it's just it's overlooked a lot because it wasn't phenominal like his speed and skill and Foreman and Frazier were around Knocking everyone that moved out at the time too.
Somehow in hindsight it's very easy to gloss over the flaws of guys like Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, etc. I'm not disrespecting your view in any way shape or form, those guys were very solid fighters, but I'm just saying it's not like they didn't have their off nights just like today's crop of heavyweight contenders. Looking back on guys like Morrison it's easy to recall his big wins and how exciting of a fighter he was, but it's harder to recall the real troubles he had with mediocre fighters that nobody thinks are good, like Michael Bentt or Joe Hipp.
I think if we are to compare these guys we should probably compare certain fights to emphasize points for and against those contenders, eg I think Lamon Brewster could beat Tommy Morrison just based on Mercer-Morrison or Morrison-Bentt and Klitschko-Brewster I, but on the other hand I also think Morrison could outbox Lamon given Morrison-Foreman and Brewster-Lyakhovich. If you look at a whole career in an unbiased fashion you will have ups and downs and on some nights Ray Mercer should have been THE Heavyweight Champion of the world and on other nights he would be lucky to be considered a contender. The guys today can only fight who is in the division at the time, they shouldn't be judged against anyone else until their career is over or like Wlad they are a champion...then you can compare a little more fairly.
But it's ok to form some theories as to how ____ would do in today's division. I find myself wondering how Joe Mesi would handle a lot of these guys. I think that guy, although no great shakes as a pure boxer, was a very entertaining fighter and he was a very good puncher. I think he would have fallen short of a title but he would have given his all for it, it wouldn't have been some wasted opportunity. I think he would pair up well with a lot of the smaller heavyweights but perhaps Eddie Chambers gives him trouble. The bigger guys would crush him, he was too easy to hit. Mesi vs Povetkin or Boytsov would have been classic brawls (not comparing them to any of the all-time greats but the styles these guys have/had would have been great to see)!
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Top 10 in 1992
1 Evander Holyfield
2 Razor Ruddock
3.Riddick bowe
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Michael Moorer
6 Larry Homes
7 George Foreman
8 Tony Tucker
9 Ray Mercer
10.frank bruno
Top 10 2010
1 Wlad
2 Vitali
3 Haye
4 Povetkin
5 Adamek
6 Chagaev
7 Chambers
8 Boytsov
9 Valuev
10 Dimitrenk
I don't see anybody from 3-10 in 2010 beating anybody from 3 - 10 in 1992 and that includes the 2 grandads!
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Top 10 in 1992
1 Evander Holyfield
2 Razor Ruddock
3.Riddick bowe
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Michael Moorer
6 Larry Homes
7 George Foreman
8 Tony Tucker
9 Ray Mercer
10.frank bruno
Top 10 2010
1 Wlad
2 Vitali
3 Haye
4 Povetkin
5 Adamek
6 Chagaev
7 Chambers
8 Boytsov
9 Valuev
10 Dimitrenk
I don't see anybody from 3-10 in 2010 beating anybody from 3 - 10 in 1992 and that includes the 2 grandads!
Damn, you are right! That is bad.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Top 10 in 1992
1 Evander Holyfield
2 Razor Ruddock
3.Riddick bowe
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Michael Moorer
6 Larry Homes
7 George Foreman
8 Tony Tucker
9 Ray Mercer
10.frank bruno
Top 10 2010
1 Wlad
2 Vitali
3 Haye
4 Povetkin
5 Adamek
6 Chagaev
7 Chambers
8 Boytsov
9 Valuev
10 Dimitrenk
I don't see anybody from 3-10 in 2010 beating anybody from 3 - 10 in 1992 and that includes the 2 grandads!
Totally Agree BIG, and I'm a Haye fan!
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Top 10 in 1992
1 Evander Holyfield
2 Razor Ruddock
3.Riddick bowe
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Michael Moorer
6 Larry Homes
7 George Foreman
8 Tony Tucker
9 Ray Mercer
10.frank bruno
Top 10 2010
1 Wlad
2 Vitali
3 Haye
4 Povetkin
5 Adamek
6 Chagaev
7 Chambers
8 Boytsov
9 Valuev
10 Dimitrenk
I don't see anybody from 3-10 in 2010 beating anybody from 3 - 10 in 1992 and that includes the 2 grandads!
This is that moment when you go ''Oh fuck! It's TRUE!'' :-\
2 divisions in class there mate.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
I think in 1992 Holmes, Foreman, Bruno, and Ruddock were very beat able and IMO Bowe would have been tested by big punchers (look at his record, who's the biggest banger he fought?). Bert Cooper gave Michael Moorer hell, you've got to figure he may have had trouble with a few of the guys listed. Tony Tucker barely beat Oliver McCall in 1992, it's not unbelieveable that someone 3-10 would give him a very hard fight.
I'm not saying this is the greatest heavyweight era ever but the thing is the individual fighters have up and down years and they differ so let's not act like in 1992 all those heavyweights would just roll through this era.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
I think in 1992 Holmes, Foreman, Bruno, and Ruddock were very beat able and IMO Bowe would have been tested by big punchers (look at his record, who's the biggest banger he fought?). Bert Cooper gave Michael Moorer hell, you've got to figure he may have had trouble with a few of the guys listed. Tony Tucker barely beat Oliver McCall in 1992, it's not unbelieveable that someone 3-10 would give him a very hard fight.
I'm not saying this is the greatest heavyweight era ever but the thing is the individual fighters have up and down years and they differ so let's not act like in 1992 all those heavyweights would just roll through this era.
No, but they were way more talented overall from 1-10 compared to this era.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
I think in 1992 Holmes, Foreman, Bruno, and Ruddock were very beat able and IMO Bowe would have been tested by big punchers (look at his record, who's the biggest banger he fought?). Bert Cooper gave Michael Moorer hell, you've got to figure he may have had trouble with a few of the guys listed. Tony Tucker barely beat Oliver McCall in 1992, it's not unbelieveable that someone 3-10 would give him a very hard fight.
I'm not saying this is the greatest heavyweight era ever but the thing is the individual fighters have up and down years and they differ so let's not act like in 1992 all those heavyweights would just roll through this era.
No, but they were way more talented overall from 1-10 compared to this era.
I totally agree. Look at the difference in shape between then and now. They were much more dedicated fighters in those days and it showed. The 4 best conditioned fighters now are the 3 champs and Adamek and surprise surprise they are the 4 making most noise! The rest of the HW's now are all burger eating bums!
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Look at their shape, fine....but that means fuck all, look at their form. Mercer was EASILY outboxed by an ancient Larry Holmes in 92, Bowe was 100% finished in 1993, Ruddock was the Arreola/Peter of his era, big talent but never reached his true potential. Moorer was dangerous but got blasted by a 45 year old 1 dimensional power puncher...what a power puncher but very 1 dimensional. Frank Bruno was pretty much finished at the top level by 1989 (his 2nd loss to Tyson) but he was popular in England, had the fight vs Lewis, and eventually won the title off McCall after that but hell how hard is it to outbox McCall?
Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Mercer, and MAYBE Moorer and Bowe were more than 50/50 vs today's heavyweight top 10 but the rest of them, their best days were behind them by 1992.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Look at their shape, fine....but that means fuck all, look at their form. Mercer was EASILY outboxed by an ancient Larry Holmes in 92, Bowe was 100% finished in 1993, Ruddock was the Arreola/Peter of his era, big talent but never reached his true potential. Moorer was dangerous but got blasted by a 45 year old 1 dimensional power puncher...what a power puncher but very 1 dimensional. Frank Bruno was pretty much finished at the top level by 1989 (his 2nd loss to Tyson) but he was popular in England, had the fight vs Lewis, and eventually won the title off McCall after that but hell how hard is it to outbox McCall?
Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Mercer, and MAYBE Moorer and Bowe were more than 50/50 vs today's heavyweight top 10 but the rest of them, their best days were behind them by 1992.
I'm sorry to say this bro. But this is nuthugging to the extreme. You're seriously downgrading and dissing the 2nd greatest HW era in order to make this current era that the Klits fight in look so much better, but the truth is it's not.
A lot of real boxing fans have given the Klits their due as the best HWs of this era, but this era also is quite weak. That's a fact and reality, live with it. Just like Louis bum of the month club or Marciano fighting old and shot HW's. It's the reality this era is really bad and weak.
Re: A good article about the HW division!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I'm sorry to say this bro. But this is nuthugging to the extreme. You're seriously downgrading and dissing the 2nd greatest HW era in order to make this current era that the Klits fight in look so much better, but the truth is it's not.
A lot of real boxing fans have given the Klits their due as the best HWs of this era, but this era also is quite weak. That's a fact and reality, live with it. Just like Louis bum of the month club or Marciano fighting old and shot HW's. It's the reality this era is really bad and weak.
Really? I mean the primes of Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, and Lewis didn't ALL overlap and plenty of more average fighters peaked and went away during all that era. I don't think it's beyond a resonable doubt that the top 10 of today could challenge those guys. Is it far fetched for a few? Yes, but it's also not unreasonable to look at the 1992 of Ray Mercer and say Thompson and Chambers beat him easily or that you look at a 1992 Frank Bruno that gets dropped more than a few times by Arreola and Sam Peter.
