Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Taeth, I do too. Two top fight p4p guys is always great for the sport especially if PBF v. Pac can't be made. But, let's be honest, you aren't a big fan of Martinez. I've never read a positive post about him from you.
Paul Williams dominated Winky Wright. He dominated Verno Phillips and Carlos Quintana and beat pre-Shane, Antonio Margarito. Sergio Martinez knocked Tall Paul out cold. You have to give him credit for that.
Pacquiao at his biggest really is a small welterweight. Martinez isn't Paul Williams - he's a thinker and he'll use his advantages. He'd pot shot and fight from a distance. Also, he has one punch KO power against middleweights with proven chins. It's a dangerous fight for Pac. I think it is more dangerous than Shane or Berto. Still, Pacquiao should be favored going into it.
I'd give Pac more credit for taking this fight than for taking a fight with Shane or Berto or Marquez as long as the fight was at 155 or above.
Anyway, the fight won't ever happen. Here is Freddie Roach on it:
Pacquiao vs Martinez won't happen - Roach | ABS-CBN News | Latest Philippine Headlines, Breaking News, Video, Analysis, Features
"Roach vowed to keep Pacquiao fighting at the welterweight limit where the boxing superstar is more 'comfortable' in.
If Martinez refuses to go down to 147 lbs., then 'the Pacquiao fight won't happen because he's too small.' "
Hey Taeth, while we are on the topic, who do you favor between Cotto and Martinez at 155?
it depends, I never felt Cotto was shot until I saw him against FOreman, I honestly think Foreman was getting the better of him in some of the rounds and looked better than him in spots.
Based on styles I would pick Cotto over Martinez, and if Cotto was closer to his best I think he would beat Martinez because as he showed early against Pacquiao, he is actually pretty quick himself, and he can deal with guys that have better speed than him. A guy like Martinez IMO would have a hard time hitting Cotto harder than COtto would be hitting him. I would see COtto working inside and stopping a guy like Martinez to the body, I always believed he woudl do the same to Williams who like Martinez gives me a feeling being too dangly"best word I can think of". I disagree with people that say Martinez is very coordinated, I think he is athletic and could be coordinated with a better trainer or more training, but he always seems a little off balance to me.
As for Paul Williams, Verno Phillips isn't that impressive to me, I only give Williams credit really against Margarito and Wright despite the fact he was watched up and didn't show up. I actually remember the first fight Paul had against Quintana because he was clearly outboxed by a guy who wasn't really that impressive. I think Quintana is a good b level fighter, but I think that fight he proved so was WIlliams. THe second fight Williams landed the right blow at the right time.
I've just read about Roach saying he is willing to have Pacuqiao fight WIlliams at 154-155ish, we will see. I think Pacquiao beats up Martinez if he stays at his current weight.
When Cotto and Martinez fight, Martinez will dominate. We'll talk then.
You should give Martinez a little more credit than you do in my opinion. In one year, he beat Kermit Cintron, Paul Williams, and Kelly Pavlik. He also has the knockout of the year and he's the linear middleweight champion. He's not quite as polished as the other top p4p guys because he doesn't have Nacho Baristain, Freddie Roach, Jeff Mayweather or Emmanual Stewart in his corner, which makes what he has done even that much more impressive. He also doesn't have financial backing of Richard Shaeffer, Bob Arum, Al Hayman, or Frank Warren. Again, making his accomplishments that much more impressive. Moreover, he started boxing at age 20. If anything, the "rawness" of his talent should impress you. Imagine what he could have done if he started earlier and had a top tier trainer in his corner.
I don't care if he started when he was 25, Nate Campbell at his best was more polished than Martinez and he started boxing later than Sergio. THe difference is that Sergio is way more athletically gifted. His accomplishments are impressive no doubt, but Manny's are way more so.
Honestly Cotto we don't know where he is right now so it's hard to judge how he would do against Martinez, but more than likely he would do fine against Sergio Martinez. There is no way based on what has happened that Sergio will dominate him. Sergio certainly didn't dominate Cintron or Paul Williams in their first fight, and neither of them are on Cotto's level... or the level he was on. THe only thing Sergio has on Cotto is speed, but COtto deals with speed really well, and Martinez doesn't throw amazing uppercuts nor does he have the same combinations and footwork that Manny does.
Anyways back to the matchup in question. If Manny fought Sergio it would be at 154-155, and I don't see why that's a problem, Sergio is a small middleweight, and he should be able to make 154 solidly. It might be hard, but based on his size he should be fine getting there with no adverse affects.
People are being retarted if they think I was comparing Diaz to Martinez, I clearly wasn't, but I was talking about what Pacquiao can do against a southpaw. He still goes to the body well, he jabs better against southpaws, he is actually harder to hit. Martinez did throw that huge right hook against Paul WIlliams in round I of their first fihgt, but overall I have not been as impressed by his right hand from which he throws a lazy albeit fast jab, and few hooks.
His problems is that he fights in spots far too much, and he seems to not retain his mental focus as much as he could, and Manny's speed, power, endurance would gradually overwhelm him.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
margarito was able to hurt pacquiao badly to the body! i wonder what martinez would do? pacquiao has zero defense and would get knocked out that's why roachie is talking out of his ass saying the fight should be at 147.
just think, the WBC's new jr. middleweight champion of the world and supposedly the GOAT is afraid to defend his title. come on pacquiao, you cherrypicked weight drained, slow assed fighters but when a fighter like martinez who is in his prime and dangerous, you ask for the impossible. we all know your little game already, one, you're afraid to face an old ass marquez cause he took you twice to the cleaners and now that you're the jr. middleweight champ, you're afraid to defend that title. what happened to the "i'll fight anyone, anytime, anywhere" we thought you were? the secret is out and the world is starting to spit out that tasty kool-aid and see that you're just a well protected, cherrypicking, hype job.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Are you fucken kidding Taeth...
David is an avg. fighter with limited hand speed, limited power and skills.
There is absofuckenlutely NO comparison aside from both being southpaws.
So let me get this right you think that because Pac was able to do those things vs. the southpaw Diaz that, it means he would do the same with Sergio?
Am I reading that right?
He fucken looked like crap in the 10 round fight vs. Montana leading up to the Pac fight.
Not to mention Silverio Ortiz was wildly ROBBED when he fought Diaz.
I'm as intrigued as anyone and actually to be quite honest I see the fight 55/45 in favor of Sergio and the only reason is because I think his skills are real. He just doesn't beat boxers with speed. He can box, look at the way he was beating Paul with the jab and how he sets up his shots.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Taeth, I do too. Two top fight p4p guys is always great for the sport especially if PBF v. Pac can't be made. But, let's be honest, you aren't a big fan of Martinez. I've never read a positive post about him from you.
Paul Williams dominated Winky Wright. He dominated Verno Phillips and Carlos Quintana and beat pre-Shane, Antonio Margarito. Sergio Martinez knocked Tall Paul out cold. You have to give him credit for that.
Pacquiao at his biggest really is a small welterweight. Martinez isn't Paul Williams - he's a thinker and he'll use his advantages. He'd pot shot and fight from a distance. Also, he has one punch KO power against middleweights with proven chins. It's a dangerous fight for Pac. I think it is more dangerous than Shane or Berto. Still, Pacquiao should be favored going into it.
I'd give Pac more credit for taking this fight than for taking a fight with Shane or Berto or Marquez as long as the fight was at 155 or above.
Anyway, the fight won't ever happen. Here is Freddie Roach on it:
Pacquiao vs Martinez won't happen - Roach | ABS-CBN News | Latest Philippine Headlines, Breaking News, Video, Analysis, Features
"Roach vowed to keep Pacquiao fighting at the welterweight limit where the boxing superstar is more 'comfortable' in.
If Martinez refuses to go down to 147 lbs., then 'the Pacquiao fight won't happen because he's too small.' "
Hey Taeth, while we are on the topic, who do you favor between Cotto and Martinez at 155?
it depends, I never felt Cotto was shot until I saw him against FOreman, I honestly think Foreman was getting the better of him in some of the rounds and looked better than him in spots.
Based on styles I would pick Cotto over Martinez, and if Cotto was closer to his best I think he would beat Martinez because as he showed early against Pacquiao, he is actually pretty quick himself, and he can deal with guys that have better speed than him. A guy like Martinez IMO would have a hard time hitting Cotto harder than COtto would be hitting him. I would see COtto working inside and stopping a guy like Martinez to the body, I always believed he woudl do the same to Williams who like Martinez gives me a feeling being too dangly"best word I can think of". I disagree with people that say Martinez is very coordinated, I think he is athletic and could be coordinated with a better trainer or more training, but he always seems a little off balance to me.
As for Paul Williams, Verno Phillips isn't that impressive to me, I only give Williams credit really against Margarito and Wright despite the fact he was watched up and didn't show up. I actually remember the first fight Paul had against Quintana because he was clearly outboxed by a guy who wasn't really that impressive. I think Quintana is a good b level fighter, but I think that fight he proved so was WIlliams. THe second fight Williams landed the right blow at the right time.
I've just read about Roach saying he is willing to have Pacuqiao fight WIlliams at 154-155ish, we will see. I think Pacquiao beats up Martinez if he stays at his current weight.
When Cotto and Martinez fight, Martinez will dominate. We'll talk then.
You should give Martinez a little more credit than you do in my opinion. In one year, he beat Kermit Cintron, Paul Williams, and Kelly Pavlik. He also has the knockout of the year and he's the linear middleweight champion. He's not quite as polished as the other top p4p guys because he doesn't have Nacho Baristain, Freddie Roach, Jeff Mayweather or Emmanual Stewart in his corner, which makes what he has done even that much more impressive. He also doesn't have financial backing of Richard Shaeffer, Bob Arum, Al Hayman, or Frank Warren. Again, making his accomplishments that much more impressive. Moreover, he started boxing at age 20. If anything, the "rawness" of his talent should impress you. Imagine what he could have done if he started earlier and had a top tier trainer in his corner.
I don't care if he started when he was 25, Nate Campbell at his best was more polished than Martinez and he started boxing later than Sergio. THe difference is that Sergio is way more athletically gifted. His accomplishments are impressive no doubt, but Manny's are way more so.
Honestly Cotto we don't know where he is right now so it's hard to judge how he would do against Martinez, but more than likely he would do fine against Sergio Martinez. There is no way based on what has happened that Sergio will dominate him. Sergio certainly didn't dominate Cintron or Paul Williams in their first fight, and neither of them are on Cotto's level... or the level he was on. THe only thing Sergio has on Cotto is speed, but COtto deals with speed really well, and Martinez doesn't throw amazing uppercuts nor does he have the same combinations and footwork that Manny does.
Anyways back to the matchup in question. If Manny fought Sergio it would be at 154-155, and I don't see why that's a problem, Sergio is a small middleweight, and he should be able to make 154 solidly. It might be hard, but based on his size he should be fine getting there with no adverse affects.
People are being retarted if they think I was comparing Diaz to Martinez, I clearly wasn't, but I was talking about what Pacquiao can do against a southpaw. He still goes to the body well, he jabs better against southpaws, he is actually harder to hit. Martinez did throw that huge right hook against Paul WIlliams in round I of their first fihgt, but overall I have not been as impressed by his right hand from which he throws a lazy albeit fast jab, and few hooks.
His problems is that he fights in spots far too much, and he seems to not retain his mental focus as much as he could, and Manny's speed, power, endurance would gradually overwhelm him.
Taeth, I agree with Mick here.
The other thing is Sergio knocked Cintron and Paul out with punches they didn't see coming. That's impressive.
Sergio Martinez has accomplished way more than Nate Campbell. I like Nate, but the accomplishments aren't close.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Are you fucken kidding Taeth...
David is an avg. fighter with limited hand speed, limited power and skills.
There is absofuckenlutely NO comparison aside from both being southpaws.
So let me get this right you think that because Pac was able to do those things vs. the southpaw Diaz that, it means he would do the same with Sergio?
Am I reading that right?
He fucken looked like crap in the 10 round fight vs. Montana leading up to the Pac fight.
Not to mention Silverio Ortiz was wildly ROBBED when he fought Diaz.
I'm as intrigued as anyone and actually to be quite honest I see the fight 55/45 in favor of Sergio and the only reason is because I think his skills are real. He just doesn't beat boxers with speed. He can box, look at the way he was beating Paul with the jab and how he sets up his shots.
David Diaz isn't as skilled, as fast or have as much power as many of the 'elite' fighters but no one can question that he is a champion with a true champions heart and there is nothing average about that.
Martinez was getting beat by Williams and would have lost both rounds, but Williams was caught by that determined left of Martinez. Watch it again.
I do agree that Martinez has more skill than Diaz, but I would actually favor Pacquiao's skill over Martinez.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Martinez is a tough tree to cut down. We're talking about 5 foot in diameter oak tree and not just some banana tree like Diaz ;D. Pac better sharpen is blades if this fight happens.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
comparing Diaz to Martinez is like comparing shit to gold
Diaz' biggest "win" was a gift decision against a shot Morales, he had looked even crappier after that fight going into the Pacquiao fight
Martinez was robbed against Cintron, and IMO should have two wins against Williams (UD and KO), he lost to Margarito due to being green, IMO he'd spark Margarito before the 4th, and he'd wear down the much smaller Pacquiao by the 9th, or he'd completely dominate him for the full 12 rnds, no way Pacquiao hurts Martinez when the full blown middleweight power puncher Pavlik didn't even wobble him
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Are you fucken kidding Taeth...
David is an avg. fighter with limited hand speed, limited power and skills.
There is absofuckenlutely NO comparison aside from both being southpaws.
So let me get this right you think that because Pac was able to do those things vs. the southpaw Diaz that, it means he would do the same with Sergio?
Am I reading that right?
He fucken looked like crap in the 10 round fight vs. Montana leading up to the Pac fight.
Not to mention Silverio Ortiz was wildly ROBBED when he fought Diaz.
I'm as intrigued as anyone and actually to be quite honest I see the fight 55/45 in favor of Sergio and the only reason is because I think his skills are real. He just doesn't beat boxers with speed. He can box, look at the way he was beating Paul with the jab and how he sets up his shots.
David Diaz isn't as skilled, as fast or have as much power as many of the 'elite' fighters but no one can question that he is a champion with a true champions heart and there is nothing average about that.
Martinez was getting beat by Williams and would have lost both rounds, but Williams was caught by that determined left of Martinez. Watch it again.
I do agree that Martinez has more skill than Diaz, but I would actually favor Pacquiao's skill over Martinez.
I had Martinez winning the second round and Williams winning the first. It was activitiy versus better more accurate shots. Same thing as the first go around.
You are right that left was determined. Thing about it was that the shot that knocked Williams out was landing before the final punch. And it was landing in the first fight. It was definitely something his team worked on for the fight. It was just a matter of time before it connected perfectly.
It's funny going into the fight, everyone was saying that Williams was so much better in rematches because of his fight with Quintana. It turned out the opposite was true - Martinez had him figured out after the first fight.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
comparing Diaz to Martinez is like comparing shit to gold
Diaz' biggest "win" was a gift decision against a shot Morales, he had looked even crappier after that fight going into the Pacquiao fight
Martinez was robbed against Cintron, and IMO should have two wins against Williams (UD and KO), he lost to Margarito due to being green, IMO he'd spark Margarito before the 4th, and he'd wear down the much smaller Pacquiao by the 9th, or he'd completely dominate him for the full 12 rnds, no way Pacquiao hurts Martinez when the full blown middleweight power puncher Pavlik didn't even wobble him
Yea, no way Pacquiao hurts Martinez. When Pavlik or Williams couldn't even wobble him. Martinez probably beats Pacquiao too assuming they don't weight drain Martinez. I'm not as quite as certain as you are. It's been a while since I've seen Pacquiao fight someone with the ring generalship that Martinez has. Margarito, Clottey, Hatton were all "come-forward" fighters. Cotto has it, but I think he was on the decline. Martinez looks to be pretty prime.
The way I always look at it is who would you give Pacquiao the most credit for beating? For me, its Mayweather and Martinez, hands down.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
David Diaz isn't as skilled, as fast or have as much power as many of the 'elite' fighters but no one can question that he is a champion with a true champions heart and there is nothing average about that.
Alright look by no means am I trying to degrade or disrespect Diaz as fighter. Because he's a nice guy and all. But the fact that he was a champ does say something but what Taeth did was try and compare Diaz to Sergio which is why I listed those things in regards to their skill levels. He's got heart but heart and skills are two diff. things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Martinez was getting beat by Williams and would have lost both rounds, but Williams was caught by that determined left of Martinez. Watch it again.
Seriously Martinez was getting beat by Paul in 2 rounds?
That reminds me of Fantana when he says that John Ruiz was beating Tua up until the KO. ;D
I mean OK so he had lost 1 and half rounds... So what's the point? The final outcome is there. Unless what your trying to say is that the punch was a lucky shot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
I do agree that Martinez has more skill than Diaz, but I would actually favor Pacquiao's skill over Martinez.
I would agree that Pac is slightly more skilled then Sergio and that's only because Pac uses combos where Sergio can throw combos but he's more of a one or two shot guy. Not a 3 or 4 shots kinda guy.
Re: Watched Pacquiao-Diaz... I really want him to fight Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Are you fucken kidding Taeth...
David is an avg. fighter with limited hand speed, limited power and skills.
There is absofuckenlutely NO comparison aside from both being southpaws.
So let me get this right you think that because Pac was able to do those things vs. the southpaw Diaz that, it means he would do the same with Sergio?
Am I reading that right?
He fucken looked like crap in the 10 round fight vs. Montana leading up to the Pac fight.
Not to mention Silverio Ortiz was wildly ROBBED when he fought Diaz.
I'm as intrigued as anyone and actually to be quite honest I see the fight 55/45 in favor of Sergio and the only reason is because I think his skills are real. He just doesn't beat boxers with speed. He can box, look at the way he was beating Paul with the jab and how he sets up his shots.
I agree with you Mick, I'm also amazed that many on this thread think Cotto would beat Martinez quite comfortably. That amazes me, I think Cotto gets mashed up against Martinez.
If Manny is to fight Martinez it would have to be at 154 at the max. Manny is nowhere near a middleweight fighter and shouldn't be thinking of climbing any higher.
If Martinez wants to come down to him then fine, but Manny isn't beating Martinez at 160 or even 156 imo, he would just be simply too outweighed.
