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I agree... I really do but I just feel that the bridge between Light Heavyweight And Heavyweight isn't facilitated by Cruiserweight at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Light Heavyweights don't hardly ever move upto Cruiserweight and Cruiserweights don't ever fight at Heavyweight.
Of course Haye has kicked off a little trend but I bet that'll fizzle out as soon as Ademek gets his blocked knocked of by KitschkoTBA :-\
Last thing in the world we need is another over fed division handing out trinkets really . We actually had a super cruiserweight division (bit of an oxy moron ha) and I believe its initial champion was Bobby Czyz...it didn't last ;D Talk of spr hvy exploded back when Grant was coming up, Lewis was in the swing, Goofy Whitaker for heavens sake lol...Dont need bigger....we just need better, and willing!! Valuev was as big as they come but the carnival fascination didn't translate into skillset...vs two 'cruisers' moved up to hvy btw. One old enough to be his pappy.
"big" guys like Clay/Ali (for his time) look how big he looked against Folley, Cooper, Quarry, Patterson, Marciano, Frazier (who were the traditional heavy size)......then Ali starts getting equalled or dwarfed in size by the mid-70s by Norton, Wepner, Foreman, Bugner, Holmes, etc in weight and size......my point is that Ali used to weigh-in at what, 214 in his prime (not talking bout that young kid Clay who coulda made supermiddleweight practically!)....BUT guys who weighed in at 230 IN SHAPE----how could they realistically lose 20 pounds and be effective at 210? I think it would sap their strength/endurance----look what happnened to Bowe when he rematched Golota, he came in light as a feather and was shot by round 4. Can anyone imagine Lennox Lewis, Michael Grant, David Tua trying to make 210--------NFW!!!!!!!! I support a SuperHeavyweight Division. Calculate a boxer's SuperHeavy percentage like a baseball player's Slugging percentage. Height/reach/weight all averaged in.
Just rewatched that one yeh, Bowe v Golota 2 . Sad really. Think a case of Bowe coming in the weight he was at very best (vs Holyfield 1) but pure imposter in regards to what was left. He didn't do himself any good balooning up though...never consistent. Think Ali was more a steady progression into weight...its the rage now and especially at 200 range, the talk of 'when do you jump up to hvy' etc. Still looked at as the money division and lifeblood of the sport , which blows me away. The bigger is no where near the better in many cases.
i agree but sometimes bigger makes it impossible to overcome. Take Quarry or Frazier----they could never beat Foreman even if they fought 100 times. Could Marciano have beaten Foreman or Lewis? Would Marciano vs Lennox be a fair fight?? NFW!!!!!!!
Well if a guy is fighting fit at 230 then he is pretty much a bona fide Heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
However a guy weighing in at round 215-225 (or just looks like they could loose a few founds) could get down to 15 stone, if they approached weight making like the smaller weight fighters do...?
Anyway, here's a list of some of the names (90's onwards) that could mix in good company of smaller Heavyweights, Cruiserweights & Lightheavyweights alike:
John Ruiz
Vassiliy Jirov
Ruslan Chagaev
Tomasz Adamek
Evander Holyfield
Orlin Norris
David Haye
Eddie Chambers
Herbie Hide
Bert Cooper
Sultan Ibragimov
Jean Marc Mormeck
Roy Jones Jnr
Steve Cunningham
Beibut Shumenov
Chris Eubank
Antonio Tarver
Michael Moorer
Denis Boytsov
Chris Byrd
James Toney
Timur Ibragimov
:thinking2:
:lifter: All these guys could fight at a 210lbs Limit... There's obviously LOADS more from Heavyweight right down to Supermiddlewight (Andre Ward??).
EXCELLENT LIST. and holyfield--- he certainly was barely a heavyweight skeleton/frame, so hats off to him for being able to stand in there with Foreman, Lewis and Bowe! amazing how holyfield's fights with qawi are barely remembered by some, he was in trilogies before Tyson was even champ. (i may be off a bit date-wise, but you get the drift).......his problem was like a chichuahua's deal: he thought he was as big as Bowe, and paid the price.
I have not read most of this thread but would just like to say that a super HW division would totaly devalue boxing golden egg ie the HW title for ever.
Completely untrue. Michael Spinks, Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones Jr, James Toney, David Haye, Tomasz Adamek, Jean Marc Mormeck, even Antonio Tarver have all had heavyweight fights and 5 of them have won world titles, although Toney didn't keep his.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusI agree... I really do but I just feel that the bridge between Light Heavyweight And Heavyweight isn't facilitated by Cruiserweight at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Light Heavyweights don't hardly ever move upto Cruiserweight and Cruiserweights don't ever fight at Heavyweight.
Of course Haye has kicked off a little trend but I bet that'll fizzle out as soon as Ademek gets his blocked knocked of by KitschkoTBA :-\
The heavyweight limit is already very different and much higher from what it used to be and is essentially already superheavyweight.
Rocky Marciano, Joe Luis and Jack Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs and would be fighting in the cruiserweight division in today's weight limits.
Considering they are three of the top 10 greatest heavies of all time, arguably top 5 it's really hard to justify having another two weight divisions above them.
Or the likes of Chris Arreola could one day wake up and realise that they should actually try and get into some sort of fighting condition.
There isn't really a heavyweight out there who is conditioned enough to be able to use the full size of the ring at a good constant pace for anywhere near 12 rounds. Maybe David Haye is an exception, as he did this against Valuev, but he didn't throw many punches.
Guys can make a good enough living by beating up other out of shape guys, and then losing a title shot against a Klitschko, before beating another bum and completing the full cycle again.
It's the allure (big name money ?!) of the hvy division that ensures Cruiser is mostly looked at as a jumping off point. Few have ever been content to end career at cruiser. I don't attribute the shortcomings to size as much as skills, being long in career or lifestyle etc. Cooper 'could' have been a superb cruiser but def would have still hit the pipe? Ruiz had a fast none clinchy style at cruiser but was yng with 'skill' to fall back on at hvy. Moorer skipped division completely from lt hvy and WAS a capable hvy, his chin was just made of matchsticks.
Moorer's chin wasn't horrible, he went toe to toe with Holyfield and took a hellacious shot from Foreman and with his bad attitude and his refusal to stay in shape it shortened his career.
He got dinged by more then a few and yeah he had a shit attitude but was prone to getting wobbled. He went toe to toe with Evander, when? 2nd fight and got bounced like a ball?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Okay so there's a few but come off it Bil. Compare that list to how many Featherweights who have moved up to Lightweight... Or Lightweights who have moved up to Welterweight... Superfeatherwights to Welterweights even!Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbocompletely untrue. Michael spinks, evander holyfield, roy jones jr, james toney, david haye, tomasz adamek, jean marc mormeck, even antonio tarver have all had heavyweight fights and 5 of them have won world titles, although toney didn't keep his.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimanuel boogustus
You see what I mean?
What Im talking about is making guys who weigh around 200-220lbs more accessible to smaller men... Light Heavyweights and such (like they used to be with the likes of Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe, Billy Con, Harry Greb, George Carpintier etc), while keeping the 210+ monsters out of it.
Now with that in mind, review your list:
Roy Jones:
He had just one fight at Heavyweight. Against John Ruiz, a man on my list.
He would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's.
James Toney:
If he had an intermidiate weight limit, he would of fought at it for as long as his gut could hold out.
He would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's.
Jean Marc Mormeck:
Can't make 200 anymore and is gunnng for David Haye. Fact
He would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's.
David Haye:
Another one who was tight at the Weight. He would of fought at 210lbs if he could.
He would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's.
Tomasz Ademek:
He would of fought at 210lbs if he could.
He would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis and WILL be Klitschko's.
Evander Holyfield
Although admittedly Holyfield is the only genuine exception to the rule he DID go 1-1-3 with Bowe & Lewis and would probably fair worse with the Klitschko's.
Michael Spinks & Michael Moorer (who you missed btw):
Both jumped the Cruiserweight division probably because it was shit ;D (but it could be so much better!!!)
Both would of been annihilated by Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko's.
In Olympic Boxing terms yes but most boxers weight much more as a Pro Boxer than they do as an Amateur. It is very rare that you see a boxer fighting at the weight that they won their amateur medal at (in and around the heavyweight limit).Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo
And that would be completely appropriate because all three of those would get anihalated by the likes of Bowe, Lewis & the Klitschko's ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo
It's called moving with the times Bill. Rocky Marciano weighed over 189lbs like once in his whole career. You could even probably count on your three fingers how many times Louis, Dempsey & Marciano fought guys who weighed heavier than 215lbs ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by bilbo
It's funny you should mention those guys though Bill because they fought the likes of Walcott, Ezzard, Conn, Carpentier... Because it has to be argued that for these tiny opponents, the heavyweight division would be unaccessible... Simply because these days, the majority of men fight at 220+
The gap still needs bridging Bil.
you mean boxing's ROTTEN egg.:-XQuote:
a super HW division would totaly devalue boxing golden egg ie the HW title for ever.