Yup. Including knowing how to hype a fight!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
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Yup. Including knowing how to hype a fight!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
So in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.
I think you guys are being harsh on Angelo, Haye is the nearest thing the heavyweights have to Ali at the moment.
Haye has speed, agility, a big mouth, accurate counter punching etc. No Haye will never be a top 15 heavyweight i find that comment a bit odd. We will really see what Haye has in July, he's so totally unproven because of all the tamato cans he's faced, but to me he shows flashes of real skill in the ring now and again.
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuSo in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.
Leonard was trained from his first day boxing by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs and they continued on with him in the pro ranks. Dundee was brought in with the understanding that he not interfere with their program: his primary function was in selecting opponents and working the corner on fight night. The day to day gym work and training was done by Jacobs and Morton.
With Ali, he didn't like Archie Moore trying to teach him things son he was sent to Dundee because he'd let him do things his way. At the time Ali and Dundee were often criticized because he wasn't seen to be developing as a pro: excessive movement, no body punching, not fighting inside, and insisting on punching to the top of the head were all considered 'not good' and something he needed to be broken of. Of course, it all turned out ok for him (though he did have sore hands his whole career), but Dundee didn't teach him a whole bunch.
And I shouldn't have made the crack about your boxing knowledge.
Grey does know his stuff i've seen him in the training boards, i think he's some famous trainer. I wish he would tell me in a PM ;)
Ok I know where you are coming from now. This is my understanding and opinion of Dundee!Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsooldFair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuSo in your opinion were Ali and Leonard the finished article before they even turned pro then?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
My boxing knowledge is just fine by the way. As far as calling you a retard....... Sorry it was early and I was tired and out of line.
Leonard was trained from his first day boxing by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs and they continued on with him in the pro ranks. Dundee was brought in with the understanding that he not interfere with their program: his primary function was in selecting opponents and working the corner on fight night. The day to day gym work and training was done by Jacobs and Morton.
With Ali, he didn't like Archie Moore trying to teach him things son he was sent to Dundee because he'd let him do things his way. At the time Ali and Dundee were often criticized because he wasn't seen to be developing as a pro: excessive movement, no body punching, not fighting inside, and insisting on punching to the top of the head were all considered 'not good' and something he needed to be broken of. Of course, it all turned out ok for him (though he did have sore hands his whole career), but Dundee didn't teach him a whole bunch.
And I shouldn't have made the crack about your boxing knowledge.
Dundee was great at getting Ali ready for his fights by picking VERY GOOD sparring partners and making him learn how to fight effectively against his next opponent. Been looking for some old videos I have seen before of them at work in the gym and Angelo giving instructions to Ali, then seeing Ali absorb the instructions or admittedly sometimes completely ignoring him (part of what made Ali so great was his own boxing brain). I have found something but not the one I have seen in the past. This is more Dundee commentating on Ali's sessions rather than showing his ability to get his message across.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni-3zx8TvAk
Also People like "Sugar" Ramos, Willie Pastrano and Luis Rodriguez learned a hell of a lot from Dundee and IMO are better examples of how good a trainer he was as they were not blessed with as much god given talent as the 2 most famous Dundee "students"!
I knew Dundee wasn't an ever present in Leonards camps but I was under the impression he had a tendency to join with 4 weeks remaining and then the tactics and game plan were worked on from there between Dundee and Leonard. This is not an uncommon practice for top trainers though, I know Manny Steward had a similar philosophy with Hamed (although I disagree with it personally). You certainly seem to know your boxing though and despite my rude rant this morning I have enjoyed our little chat. Again I apologize for that!
If Angelo nurtured the natural talent that Ali and Leonard had then credit to him, from what you are saying the great Archie Moore could not do it. Dundee was not trusted by the Black Muslims and so Ali showed great loyalty by sticking with him during that early period too.
Great point. It would have been very easy to leave Dundee at that point. Ali knew he was onto something good if you ask me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Master