Ali in his prime at 36!!!! Did you see what he was doing at 22 years of age and the people he beat after. Most men would not have been competing after they were 30 if they had a career like Ali's.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
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Ali in his prime at 36!!!! Did you see what he was doing at 22 years of age and the people he beat after. Most men would not have been competing after they were 30 if they had a career like Ali's.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
mmm, Ali kind of started his championship career in the deep end, and thats an understatement.
At 22 he was facing Sonny Liston, and remember this Liston guy was seen as invincible and had twice destroyed THE legitimate UNDISPUTED world champion (Patterson, who won the title younger than even Tyson!), and from whom Rocky Marciano had run shitscared from.
NOW - Think about that for a moment, Marciano is a pretty much an ATG and is tough as nails as BrocktonBusterBloodvessel has gone to great lengths to point out... and he was shitscared of the guy that Ali (barely a modern day adult as 22) EASILY beat!
This was not even Alis best, he just got better in the next few years. Those early defences were just as amazing - destroying legit world champions Ellis, Patterson and Terrell, and making monkeys of the hardest hitters or toughest fighters of the time (Cleveland Williams, George Chuvalo). He went literally whole fights where his opponent never landed a solid blow on him, and we are talking about legit number one challengers, not fighting bums for ten years like some fighters do these days - Ali wouldnt spend more than one fight with a bum (there was only one 'bum' british champion Brian London, in that early reign, who later pointed out that he was sure he never contributed to Ali's Parkinsons, since he never actually hit Ali in their fight!) , let alone ten years of them to pad out an 'undefeated record'.
I am not undermining the Rock's talent but how great would Rocky vs Chavalo had been? Rocky was by far a better fighter and I know I'm biased being Canadian but don't see George being knocked down let alone out.
I know who I pick as the best of the 2.....
Debatable Marciano's top 4 names he won against...
better at the lower weights... Ezzard Charles who went on to fight another 23 times losing 13 of them
Rex Layne went on to fight 9 more times losing 5 of them
Joe Louis comming out of retirement to pay the tax man... pointless win on a par with Holmes ali and and Tyson Holmes.
39 year old Jersey Joe Walcott
retired undefeated after defending his title whole 6 time
Debatable Ali's top 4 fighters he won against...
Sonny Liston monster for his weight :) and went on to fight 16 more fights losing only once
Joe Fraizer
George Foreman went on to fight 6 more times losing only once then coming back to fight to fight another 34 times losing 3 times
Floyd Patterson went on to fight 16 more times losing 3 times one of them being to ali again
Ali fought on far to long prob should have retired after the 3rd Fraizer fight IMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddo
Good points Saddo.
If you wanna compare the competition Ali and Marciano faced, it's not even a contest, Ali's competition was far superior to Marciano's.
No offense meant to Marciano's fans, but prime Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes,Tyson and Lennox Lewis were all "big" Heavyweights, who would have crushed the much smaller Marciano.
:nono:Quote:
and from whom Rocky Marciano had run shitscared from.
Im sure in everyones top 5 heavyweights of all time marciano might make the list but only just..
Ali
Jack johnson
Larry holmes
Lennox
Tyson.
Joe louis, marciano etc
Imho.
Prime for prime mercer would take marciano and tommy gun would give him problems!
sif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
you are well wacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
I don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap of BShitting like Marciano did - when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed that rather than talk shit like Rocky did, he was down to earth and said - 'who knows?'
thx for posting the video, Brockton, always good to win an argument using your opponents own attack. ;) very nearly said 'rope-a-dope' there.
I'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.
well he steered clear of Patterson and Liston (who would have beat him), just as soon as Ingemar Johannson (a paper champion whom he could easily beat even in his midthirties) had lost the title, he stopped his comeback and reretired for good. SO what he said about Ali, and what he actually did are polar opposites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.
[QUOTE=RohanKnight;1019867][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1019866]If Marciano was officially retired, how the fuck is he steering clear of Patterson and Liston? Aside from what i'm hearing from you, i've never heard this bullshit, or that he stopped a comeback rather than fight Liston. Rocky feared no man, he retired, and stayed retired for reasons that had fuck all to do with Patterson, Liston, Ali, et al, end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightwell he steered clear of Patterson and Liston, as soon as Ingemar Johannson had lost the title, he stopped his comeback and reretired for good. SO what he said about Ali, and what he actually did are polar opposites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.