Bert Sugar on Mike Tyson, his legacy and chances against the Klitchko's

OK so you're comparing Wlad to Tony Tucker? You think that is a valid comparison?

Sanders caught Vitali flush and the ref ruled it a slip, but its erroneous because Vitali stopped him anyway.

Its a hypothetical match up and just based on styles the Klitschko's have exactly what you would want to beat a fighter like Tyson with and perhaps vice versa. I'm basing my decision on what I've seen, I've seen Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis hammer Tyson and the Klitschko's are far better than Douglas perhaps slightly under Lewis, but they are in the group that would have a good shot vs Tyson.

The funny thing is the people who make excuses for Tyson always cite his poor training for the Douglas fight, but that's a flaw of the fighter, if he didn't train properly that's on him and it shouldn't be an excuse.

Yes of course its Mike Tysons fault im not disputing that but at the dame time not one person seriously believes that Douglas would have beaten Mike at his best. Douglas wouldnt have beaten the version of Holmes that Mike did, I also doubt he would have beaten Spinks.

The only fight who had the confidence to put combinations together and had any speed that Wladimir faced smashed him inside 2 rounds. Look how cautious he fought Haye. He was very wary of Hayes speed and power and would have shit himself as the ref was giving instructions while Tyson glared at him;D.

Vitali may not have shit himself while Tyson glared at him but as soon as Mike started landing and Vitali couldnt catch him back he would then have had the same fearing for his life look that he had when Sanders was catching him near the end of the first in their fight as he was staggering backwards and holding for dear life(the same look Audley has when any sort of punch is coming his way).

Mike would have been able to keep that up until he stopped Vitali because he wouldnt have been a retired fat golf player;D

Tyson one of the metal weak fighters i have ever seen i give him good chance to beat bothe brothers. But in saying that if he could not knock Vitali out quick he be pretty fucked to be honest with you.

As for Tyson being prime this what i always found to be quite funny. When he lost to Holyfeild he just destroyed Frank Bruno faster then eh did in so called prime then got destroyed by Evander Holyfield.

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Utter depravity. Guys like Frazier and Marciano who really knew how to get inside, the K bros have never fought. All they have fought are cowards that, after bobbing a wee-bit and trying to get inside a wee-bit, and then tasting a couple nice steelhammer counter shots on the way in, GAVE THE FOCK UP AND DECIDED IT WAS SAFER ON THE OUTSIDE. CAN ANYONE SEE MARCIANO OR FRAZIER DECIDING TO STAY ON THE OUTSIDE?
PL-EEEEEASE!......

We're not talking about Frazier or Marciano we're talking about Tyson a guy who DID give up, a guy who DID get frustrated in the ring. I don't hate on Tyson but it must be said that for as intimidating as he was he was a psychologically weak fighter. Frazier and Rocky are 2 of the mentally toughest fighters there have ever been, Tyson didn't have that in him. Tyson never got up to beat someone, he never scored a KO when he was down on points, and when the momentum of a fight was taken from him he caved. Hell of a fighter, but that flaw of being psychologically weak is a big flaw.

to summarise

the klits are very good boxers and would probably be in the top 3 best hws in history but they would both also be in the top 2 least exciting significant HW world champs in history too

Im not sure bert was actually trying to say that exactly but thats what i got out of it

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Would Tyson have fought like that? Would Haye have got out of the first round with Tyson? Would Haye have talked so much shit for a few years and been so eager to get in their with Tyson?

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad had to stalk Haye down for 12 rounds and people routinely confuse "being smart" with "being cautious"...Would Wlad have been smart if he just walked right into one of Haye's haymakers? NO! So Wlad stuck to his game plan (which has never not worked) pump the jab, look for openings, and don't get caught in return.

And who says Vitali "wouldn't be able to find Tyson"?!?! If anything Tyson would have a hard time finding Vitali, Sanders caught him as did Lennox but those guys are significantly taller than Tyson.

Bobbing and weaving doesn't mean much if you can't get passed the jab. The guys that use head movement to work to the inside of the Klitschko's are routinely tied up, out maneuvered, or walked into punches.

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Would Tyson have fought like that? Would Haye have got out of the first round with Tyson? Would Haye have talked so much shit for a few years and been so eager to get in their with Tyson?

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Well first off, the styles of Wlad and Tyson are very different and built to be effective in different ways.

Yes Haye would have talked himself up, he'd do it vs anyone that's his M.O., he's an asshole its what he does.

Would Tyson have operated the way Wlad did? No because Tyson's style wasn't based on what Wlad's style is based on.

Would Haye survive at least a round...maybe, it would depend on how big the ring was.

Haye was by no means "eager" to fight Wlad.

How does a Haye-Tyson fight end? A mid-early rounds KO, when Haye is looking to the ref in sympathy for being "fouled" Tyson would forearm him in the throat and then rip off a 3 punch combo sending the bewildered Haye to the canvas for a 5 count, stumbling up at 6, falling down again at 7, and down one more time at 9 as the ref waves the fight off.

You wouldn't expect Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey to finish fighters the same way would you?

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Originally Posted by Mr140

As for Tyson being prime this what i always found to be quite funny. When he lost to Holyfeild he just destroyed Frank Bruno faster then eh did in so called prime then got destroyed by Evander Holyfield.

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The Tyson that first fought Bruno was very poor, and was going through a lot of crap at home. Bruno was also shit scared the second time.

Lyle has Delusions of grandeur regarding the Klits inside and outside of boxing these guys will never be held to the level and standard of Tyson FACT.

Master like so many others always with the excuses for Tyson i always find it funny. I am not as critical on Tyson as i used to be i do feel he belongs in the top heavies and that makes him atg. But i have to put him tad lower on the list because his mental stat is quiet weak for top fighter. I mean he loses to a 40 1 in Douglas then goes on to do ok only to get pounded again by Holyfield i mean people say he was out of prime i find that funny. I mean look at all the other greats Robinson, Holyfeild, Lewis, Duran, Hearns, Leonard and many others out of there prime or weight kept going and had alot more problems. Just goes to show that the game is more mental then anything else and if you going to keep going you got to have the balls to do it i guess or you cant win.

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Originally Posted by piye

Lyle has Delusions of grandeur regarding the Klits inside and outside of boxing these guys will never be held to the level and standard of Tyson OPINION.

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...There, fixed that for you

My own two cents on this:

First, I think Tyson gets a bum rap about being mentally weak. Where does that come from? Maybe later in his career, after he was going downhill. But was he mentally weak before? I think not. He was getting pummeled by Douglas and didn't quit. He got pummeled by Holyfield and didn't quit. (Well... he DID bite the guy's ear off, which was sort of quitting, by getting disqualified, but oh well).

Second, as objectively as I can... I think Tyson may not have gotten past Vitali. The size difference, Vitali's granite chin... those factors would've been key. But Wladimir? I think Tyson takes his head off. The argument that the Klitschkos don't get hit with uppercuts? Who have they EVER faced that throws the same murderous uppers that Tyson used to throw? No one. Take my word for it. Prime Tyson would've bobbed and weaved his way into Wladimir's guard, thrown some of those bombs, and gotten Wlad out of there in a hurry. Brewster and Sanders put him down.... and they were nowhere near Tyson's quality.