Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dropanuke
I've been watching froch fights from his debut again and have noticed he or he seems faster before 30 years of age, watch him against Damon Hague and Henry porras in Hollywood and tell me whats different from then to now and give your pros and cons
The difference is that he was in against crap competition then.
At the elite level, I've never though much of Froch. Big heart, great chin, but very slow and very poor fundamentals. So easy to hit.
It's hard to say anything with confidence about Bute, since he hasn't faced anyone better than a super-faded 45 year-old Glen Johnson, but I'd still pick him to beat Froch. The only attribute where Froch has the advantage is chin, but Bute's not an eggshell like Jermain Taylor so I don't think that's much of an issue anyway.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dropanuke
I've been watching froch fights from his debut again and have noticed he or he seems faster before 30 years of age, watch him against Damon Hague and Henry porras in Hollywood and tell me whats different from then to now and give your pros and cons
The difference is that he was in against crap competition then.
At the elite level, I've never though much of Froch. Big heart, great chin, but very slow and very poor fundamentals. So easy to hit.
It's hard to say anything with confidence about Bute, since he hasn't faced anyone better than a super-faded 45 year-old Glen Johnson, but I'd still pick him to beat Froch. The only attribute where Froch has the advantage is chin, but Bute's not an eggshell like Jermain Taylor so I don't think that's much of an issue anyway.
I think a little higher of Froch than Shza may because he has been able to earn wins against Glen Johnson, Andre Dirrell, and Jean Pascal. They're all quality combatants.
As to Bute, Glen Johnson and Sakio Bika are both legitimate opponents. Not elite opponents like Ward and Froch, but compotent opponents nonetheless and he performed as expected. Froch is the next step in his progression.
If you don't think much of Froch, does Ward still remain not proven in your eyes? I would argue Froch is Ward's best win. Other than Froch, it's Kessler, but I'm not sure how high I rate this version of Kessler. He seems to be injury-prone and on his last leg.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dropanuke
I've been watching froch fights from his debut again and have noticed he or he seems faster before 30 years of age, watch him against Damon Hague and Henry porras in Hollywood and tell me whats different from then to now and give your pros and cons
The difference is that he was in against crap competition then.
At the elite level, I've never though much of Froch. Big heart, great chin, but very slow and very poor fundamentals. So easy to hit.
It's hard to say anything with confidence about Bute, since he hasn't faced anyone better than a super-faded 45 year-old Glen Johnson, but I'd still pick him to beat Froch. The only attribute where Froch has the advantage is chin, but Bute's not an eggshell like Jermain Taylor so I don't think that's much of an issue anyway.
I think a little higher of Froch than Shza may because he has been able to earn wins against Glen Johnson, Andre Dirrell, and Jean Pascal. They're all quality combatants.
As to Bute, Glen Johnson and Sakio Bika are both legitimate opponents. Not elite opponents like Ward and Froch, but compotent opponents nonetheless and he performed as expected. Froch is the next step in his progression.
If you don't think much of Froch, does Ward still remain not proven in your eyes? I would argue Froch is Ward's best win. Other than Froch, it's Kessler, but I'm not sure how high I rate this version of Kessler. He seems to be injury-prone and on his last leg.
I said before the Froch fight that it would be a wide and easy fight for Ward, and it was exactly that.
But so is Ward "proven"? He's certainly not "all time great" proven but he's about as proven as he could be, given the competition. I consider the Klitchkos proven too. Like them, it's notable and important that he's dropped very few rounds against the other guys at the top of the division, B+ fighters though they may be (the Klitchkos' competition has been basically C-level fighters, though no fault of theirs).
I do think Kessler is a better win than Froch though, yes. "This version of Kessler" was still good enough to beat Froch, anyway (though it was, as I've said previously, the sloppiest and most amatueurish looking fight I've ever seen between two supposedly elite fighters).
I also thought Froch lost to Dirrell, though I can understand how judges who value aggression over defense and skill could score it the other way. But I would definitely pick Dirrell in a rematch.
I would like to see Ward against Dirrell and Bute and then ultimately against Chad Dawson. That one would be a true test.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dropanuke
I've been watching froch fights from his debut again and have noticed he or he seems faster before 30 years of age, watch him against Damon Hague and Henry porras in Hollywood and tell me whats different from then to now and give your pros and cons
The difference is that he was in against crap competition then.
At the elite level, I've never though much of Froch. Big heart, great chin, but very slow and very poor fundamentals. So easy to hit.
It's hard to say anything with confidence about Bute, since he hasn't faced anyone better than a super-faded 45 year-old Glen Johnson, but I'd still pick him to beat Froch. The only attribute where Froch has the advantage is chin, but Bute's not an eggshell like Jermain Taylor so I don't think that's much of an issue anyway.
I think a little higher of Froch than Shza may because he has been able to earn wins against Glen Johnson, Andre Dirrell, and Jean Pascal. They're all quality combatants.
As to Bute, Glen Johnson and Sakio Bika are both legitimate opponents. Not elite opponents like Ward and Froch, but compotent opponents nonetheless and he performed as expected. Froch is the next step in his progression.
If you don't think much of Froch, does Ward still remain not proven in your eyes? I would argue Froch is Ward's best win. Other than Froch, it's Kessler, but I'm not sure how high I rate this version of Kessler. He seems to be injury-prone and on his last leg.
But so is Ward "proven"? He's certainly not "all time great" proven but he's about as proven as he could be, given the competition. I consider the Klitchkos proven too. Like them, it's notable and important that he's dropped very few rounds against the other guys at the top of the division, B+ fighters though they may be (the Klitchkos' competition has been basically C-level fighters, though no fault of theirs).
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Absolutely. I expect him to as well, and I'll then very much look forward to a Ward-Bute fight.
I'd like to see Ward fight Anthony and then Andre Dirrell while Bute fights Froch and Kessler, and then see Ward-Bute, assuming both win the previous fights.
If Andre Dirrell's on, he could give Ward a run for his money though. I think he's a better opponent than Froch or Kessler.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Absolutely. I expect him to as well, and I'll then very much look forward to a Ward-Bute fight.
I'd like to see Ward fight Anthony and then Andre Dirrell while Bute fights Froch and Kessler, and then see Ward-Bute, assuming both win the previous fights.
If Andre Dirrell's on, he could give Ward a run for his money though. I think he's a better opponent than Froch or Kessler.
Yes, last Saturday's fight wasn't indicative of very much in my opinion. Aren't Dirrell and Ward managed by Haymon? Do Haymon fighters ever fight each other?
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Rant, you're a big Bute fan. I've only seen a few of his fights, not enough to make a sound judgement on him. Can you direct me to any fights I should check out to learn a bit more about him? I'd like to see a bit more before I really comment on how I think he'd do against Froch/Kessler/Ward. Cheers.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Bute will probably beat him and then Froch will have to content himself with fucking his ridiculously fit bird for the rest of his days.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cressa121
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Rant, you're a big Bute fan. I've only seen a few of his fights, not enough to make a sound judgement on him. Can you direct me to any fights I should check out to learn a bit more about him? I'd like to see a bit more before I really comment on how I think he'd do against Froch/Kessler/Ward. Cheers.
Cressa, no doubt, my man. I'd be more than happy to. I would direct you to the fights against his best opponents, which are Sakio Bika and Glencoffe Johnson. He didn't knock out either though so you only need a few rounds from each to see what kind of fighter he is and pick up his style. I've added part I from the Johnson fight and part II from the Bika fight. You can find the other parts from there. He's famous for his left uppercut to the body (he's a southpaw). One of the main reasons I like him is his body work. For a tall, rangy fighter, he goes to the body a lot. I added his left uppercut KO of Edison Miranda for a good example of his left upper cut. His KO uppercut to the liver of Anrade was also pretty special. And because I just couldn't help myself since you got me on a mission: I also added his most recent KO against Mendy. That KO was also mentioned on a lot of KO of 2011 lists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7yGi...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYmz4r-pdgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0hvYXg8Bw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWeu2aEev70&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9HDTsBa38Q&feature=related
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cressa121
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Rant, you're a big Bute fan. I've only seen a few of his fights, not enough to make a sound judgement on him. Can you direct me to any fights I should check out to learn a bit more about him? I'd like to see a bit more before I really comment on how I think he'd do against Froch/Kessler/Ward. Cheers.
Cressa, no doubt, my man. I'd be more than happy to. I would direct you to the fights against his best opponents, which are Sakio Bika and Glencoffe Johnson. He didn't knock out either though so you only need a few rounds from each to see what kind of fighter he is and pick up his style. I've added part I from the Johnson fight and part II from the Bika fight. You can find the other parts from there. He's famous for his left uppercut to the body (he's a southpaw). One of the main reasons I like him is his body work. For a tall, rangy fighter, he goes to the body a lot. I added his left uppercut KO of Edison Miranda for a good example of his left upper cut. His KO uppercut to the liver of Anrade was also pretty special. And because I just couldn't help myself since you got me on a mission: I also added his most recent KO against Mendy. That KO was also mentioned on a lot of KO of 2011 lists.
Thanks for these.
Looking at those videos it's clear he's got some serious power, is very slick and has good hand speed to boot. I remember watching the Magee fight and being impressed with his body shots, and again he works the body very well in some of these videos. That KO of Andrade is a beautiful shot.
I think the body shots would be a big factor in a fight with Froch. Froch said that Kessler's body shots were killing him, and Bute works the body very well. If he committed downstairs against Froch I could see him getting a stoppage that way. Couple that with the fact that Froch struggles with slick fighters and I can see Bute having a lot of success against Carl.
It all depends on how Bute makes the step up to fighting the elite fighters now. He doesn't seem to get out of 2nd gear in the Johnson fight which is encouraging given how comfortably he wins. It looks like he could easily take it up another notch or 2. I'd lean towards Bute to beat Froch right now. It should be a fun fight for sure.
Re: If it happens who wins?
I used to rate Froch a lot but for me he's well behind Ward and Bute now.
If they fought the question would be 'Can Bute do a better job on him than Ward did?'.
Re: If it happens who wins?
I favor Froch because of his intensity and Bute has a chance because of his power base but Bute has a good chance to win only because Froch just lost his last fight. I suggest a tune up and his hands held high otherwise he could be looking at the ceiling lights, iron chin or no iron chin. For Froch it depends on whether his head and ass are properly wired together after Ward.
Re: If it happens who wins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cressa121
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cressa121
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
So, then I'm assuming just for the sake of discussion that if Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler he's as proven as Ward is. I'm not saying he'll do either of those for sure, but I expect him to.
Rant, you're a big Bute fan. I've only seen a few of his fights, not enough to make a sound judgement on him. Can you direct me to any fights I should check out to learn a bit more about him? I'd like to see a bit more before I really comment on how I think he'd do against Froch/Kessler/Ward. Cheers.
Cressa, no doubt, my man. I'd be more than happy to. I would direct you to the fights against his best opponents, which are Sakio Bika and Glencoffe Johnson. He didn't knock out either though so you only need a few rounds from each to see what kind of fighter he is and pick up his style. I've added part I from the Johnson fight and part II from the Bika fight. You can find the other parts from there. He's famous for his left uppercut to the body (he's a southpaw). One of the main reasons I like him is his body work. For a tall, rangy fighter, he goes to the body a lot. I added his left uppercut KO of Edison Miranda for a good example of his left upper cut. His KO uppercut to the liver of Anrade was also pretty special. And because I just couldn't help myself since you got me on a mission: I also added his most recent KO against Mendy. That KO was also mentioned on a lot of KO of 2011 lists.
Thanks for these.
Looking at those videos it's clear he's got some serious power, is very slick and has good hand speed to boot. I remember watching the Magee fight and being impressed with his body shots, and again he works the body very well in some of these videos. That KO of Andrade is a beautiful shot.
I think the body shots would be a big factor in a fight with Froch. Froch said that Kessler's body shots were killing him, and Bute works the body very well. If he committed downstairs against Froch I could see him getting a stoppage that way. Couple that with the fact that Froch struggles with slick fighters and I can see Bute having a lot of success against Carl.
It all depends on how Bute makes the step up to fighting the elite fighters now. He doesn't seem to get out of 2nd gear in the Johnson fight which is encouraging given how comfortably he wins. It looks like he could easily take it up another notch or 2. I'd lean towards Bute to beat Froch right now. It should be a fun fight for sure.
No problem.
I'm a fan of both guys. I'm of the belief that one can never count Froch out. He's a tough hombre with a ton of self-belief and even if defeat I have not seen him question his ability. He walks away from his loss a proud man. Froch would be in this fight if he get to Bute early and make him wary of engaging. It's a fight that would really tell us where they are.
I agree with Bilbo that in a way the question will be can Bute do better than Ward against Froch. However, as I said above, I don't count Froch out. I can see Froch putting hands on Bute or catching with a flush shot that shakes Bute a bit.
Cressa - I realized in my hurry to show you his highlights what I forgot to mention are Bute's faults. For one, Bute has a somewhat questionable chin. I'm not referring to the Andrade I fight because I'm convinced that wasn't one or two punches that hurt Bute but fatigue from the whole fight. I'm referring to his amateur fight with Gennady Golovkin where Golovkin KO'd him. He had headgear on then so you have to be a little suspicious of his chin until he proves he has one. He's been in with punchers though in the professional ranks and won so it's a bit unclear now really.
His other fault is that his inside game is lacking. I haven't seen him effectively fight inside like say Ward or Hopkins can. It's the primary reason I see a Ward/Bute fight at 60-40 Ward because I have a feeling Ward would work his way inside and smother Bute. Bute is most effective at range so if you can take that away from him...
