a point of pure speculation

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Hulk

A much better fight would have been the Roy Jones Jr. that fought Ruiz vs. Cassius Clay.

They were similar in weight as Clay was a smallish heavyweight before his exile.

I think Jones would have been too fast, and before people start the "glass chin" business about Jones, consider if Clay would have been able to hit him clean.

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Ali beat Liston and other decent heavyweights, Roy beat ....Ruiz.

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And Liston didn't fight much like Roy now did he ?

I suppose you can say an old Floyd Patterson with back problems was similar to Roy Jones, but not really.

A young brash, skinny Cassius Clay struggled greatly with Doug Jones and was lucky to get the win.

I think he struggles even more with the unbelievable speed, talent and unorthodox style of Roy Jones.

I see Roy outspeeding and outpointing Clay for a decision.

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You are quite mad.

Hang on... We're matching a prime Jones Jr against a green Casius Clay?

Stretching it a bit?

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Hang on... We're matching a prime Jones Jr against a green Casius Clay?

Stretching it a bit?

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I think its debatable if Jones was still prime when he faced Ruiz, Miles. Clay who beat Liston even vs. Roy Jones who beat Ruiz. I'll take Roy.

Clay/Ali has an aura and deserves all the accolades, but he was not unbeatable.

Henry Cooper essentially KO'd him then Ali was given over 10 mins to recover when Dundee ripped open a glove. And no that is not a myth, it is a fact. One that has been recounted on documentaries and by Dundee himself.

It was closer to 10 seconds than ten minutes... 0_o

Fact is that you're still talking about a Jones who was at the very least NEAR his peak and more experienced than cas clay was.

Jones at a comparable point in his career to when clay fought cooper had not long moved up from 154lb

If you compare two fighters then it's only fair to compare them at similar times.

I'd beat Ali AND Jones on the same day.
(if I boxed them now, the first time they sparred) :rolleyes:

Edit: did you just call me 'Miles'?

Fucking cunt! Wash your mouth with soap.

Clay v Cooper - The Final Word On The Torn Glove Story

...but people do love a good story, so the legend persists.

I think this could be a very interesting fight, especially if we are going to assume that Toney comes in motivated, in shape and determined to win. In that case, he would be plenty aggressive. I just watched the Holyfield fight, and Toney went after him and got that ass; he toyed with Evander from the second round on.
One thing you aren't going to do is dance around James Toney and poke at him with a jab, or beat him with the right hand, and Ali had nothing else. Ali really had only reflexes and conditioning, and that is plenty against the big dummies of the boxing world, the HW division. Not so much against a very smart fighter.
I think that the jab Toney showed in the Hembrick and Holyfield fights, for example, would give Ali troubles because when Ali jabbed his right glove flared out; it didn't stay home to catch the counter jab. Norton exploited this, and I think Toney, much more skilled and faster than Norton, would be able to do the same. Ali would have a lot of trouble because Toney would be as fast ands would be able to counter him.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Hang on... We're matching a prime Jones Jr against a green Casius Clay?

Stretching it a bit?

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I think its debatable if Jones was still prime when he faced Ruiz, Miles. Clay who beat Liston even vs. Roy Jones who beat Ruiz. I'll take Roy.

Clay/Ali has an aura and deserves all the accolades, but he was not unbeatable.

Henry Cooper essentially KO'd him then Ali was given over 10 mins to recover when Dundee ripped open a glove. And no that is not a myth, it is a fact. One that has been recounted on documentaries and by Dundee himself.

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Hulk by your equation a young Ali v Herbie Hide would have been a close contest too. :)

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

It was closer to 10 seconds than ten minutes... 0_o

Fact is that you're still talking about a Jones who was at the very least NEAR his peak and more experienced than cas clay was.

Jones at a comparable point in his career to when clay fought cooper had not long moved up from 154lb

If you compare two fighters then it's only fair to compare them at similar times.

I'd beat Ali AND Jones on the same day.
(if I boxed them now, the first time they sparred) :rolleyes:

Edit: did you just call me 'Miles'?

Fucking cunt! Wash your mouth with soap.

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Consider it a compliment you cheeky cunt ! ;D

And I said Clay who fought Liston vs. Jones who fought Ruiz.

Jesus Christ we both know Jones would have been a more difficult match up for Ali than a relatively stationary James Toney.

And it wasn't 10 seconds, thats nonsense. The myth is that the glove incident was short or never occurred, not that it was long.

And if we are to compare them at similar times then Jones who beat Ruiz vs. Ali who beat Leon Spinks.

There thats fair ;D

And I see your Eastsideboxing source regarding the glove tear and raise you this:

Remembrance: Trainer Angelo Dundee Was At His Best In The Corner For Ali, Leonard And More

I don't like Kevin Iole but he is Yahoo Sports top boxing/mma writer. I don't think he would subscribe to an urban legend or myth.

And here is another article recounting the events as well:

Angelo Dundee never forgot his Philly roots - Page 3 - Philly.com

BUT...I could be wrong. ;)

I'm just glad my whiskey induced thoughts provoked this much interest :D

As for Jones Vs Ali...I think ht would an anticlimatic fight as neither fighters like to come forward since they have a much easier time goading their opponents to come at [them.]

In terms of pure speed Jones has it over ali and I think he had a better left hook by far, he also goes to the body, though not consistantly enough for my taste, however Ali's jab...well that jab wins championship fights.

In a sense it would be akin to wlad vs Haye (the pussification of Haye aside). one fighter trying home in the jab and the other trying to find an opportunity to throw in sharp counter punches.