Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.
Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.
That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali. ;D
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.
Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.
That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali. ;D
If you want to compare two boxers than you just have to say boxer X year 2012 vs. boxer Y year 1970. All other factors are irrelevant if you want to compare two boxers across time. The only reason to mention size, nutrition and blah blah blah blah is if you want past boxers to be the best.
"Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in" - why? Last time I read the rules there was no weight limit in the HW division. What do you mean by saying "factor that in"? Should K2 start down 1 points every rd. or what?
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Plys 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.
Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.
That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali. ;D
If you want to compare two boxers than you just have to say boxer X year 2012 vs. boxer Y year 1970. All other factors are irrelevant if you want to compare two boxers across time. The only reason to mention size, nutrition and blah blah blah blah is if you want past boxers to be the best.
"Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in" - why? Last time I read the rules there was no weight limit in the HW division. What do you mean by saying "factor that in"? Should K2 start down 1 points every rd. or what?
Stuff and Nonsense. Whilst the ungainly Ukrainians are of course entitled to be awarded the accolades they have accrued today as rulers of a heavyweight division they are quite literally head and shoulders above, you can not ignore the fact that their size has afforded them an advantage heavyweight champions of the past did not possess. They do not fight as often and the quality of their opposition is nowhere near that of their predecessors. Posters in this thread have had the audacity to compare Mormeck and Frazier?!!! come on man in any era, heart, desire and the ability to not be intimidated before even entering the ring is massively important. Most Klitschko opponents are beaten before stepping through the ropes.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Lol. Muppet. Stick to the script.
Vlad dominates this divison. The same divison audley is in. If audley beats price then vlad will fight him.
Wlad can't help it if Audley wants to get his ass kicked repeatedly. It's not like Lennox Lewis' or Mike Tyson's divisions were devoid of bums. Mike Tyson fought Bruce Seldon....FOR A TITLE!!! That's how sorry the division was back then
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Plys 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
This is a bit silly. Haye, Wlad and Vitali look like bodybuilders but that is not what puts power in their punches or provides evidence of stamina and physical fitness. There are many unfit bodybuilders who have little stamina and physical fitness and many other less ripped guys who have greater cardio fitness, resistance and staying power. If you are going to include fighters from the past you then also have to afford them the same nutritional and scientific training methods used by boxers today and put more hunger into modern boxers who have way more distractions and competition when it comes to building a legacy than fighters from a bygone age had. It does not work. While it is true that many of us have a tendency to romanticise the past it is also apparent that many modern fight fans exaggerate the achievements of todays greatest.
Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in. If you do that you can then not ignore that fact when you calculate their greatness. If none of the older heavyweights would be big enough to compete today then maybe it is also true that you can not berate them for it or attribute too much to the dominance of two brothers who nearly always enter the ring with a huge size and weight advantage over their opponents.
That said 6 times out of ten Joe stops Wlad and outpoints Vitali. ;D
If you want to compare two boxers than you just have to say boxer X year 2012 vs. boxer Y year 1970. All other factors are irrelevant if you want to compare two boxers across time. The only reason to mention size, nutrition and blah blah blah blah is if you want past boxers to be the best.
"Wlad and Vitali are huge. You have to factor that in" - why? Last time I read the rules there was no weight limit in the HW division. What do you mean by saying "factor that in"? Should K2 start down 1 points every rd. or what?
Stuff and Nonsense. Whilst the ungainly Ukrainians are of course entitled to be awarded the accolades they have accrued today as rulers of a heavyweight division they are quite literally head and shoulders above, you can not ignore the fact that their size has afforded them an advantage heavyweight champions of the past did not possess. They do not fight as often and the quality of their opposition is nowhere near that of their predecessors. Posters in this thread have had the audacity to compare Mormeck and Frazier?!!! come on man in any era, heart, desire and the ability to not be intimidated before even entering the ring is massively important. Most Klitschko opponents are beaten before stepping through the ropes.
You could turn all the parameters as much as you like. You will always twist them so the B/W fighters are better than every present fighter. Your choice but very subjective. The only question is: would Wlad anno 2012 beat JF/Ali anno 1971.
Joe Frazier had less than 40 fights.....over a span of 16 years - so he had far less fights than Wlad and Vitali.......
JF met only 3 undefeated fighters with a combined record of 91-0 - Wlad has so far met (with Wach) 8 with 175-0.
Please do not mention Wlad and that smoking boxer in the same line :-D
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Wlad has 14 more KOs than Frazier had fights - Frazier had only 27 KOs in 37 fights over more than 15 years :-( - very sad record for a great but pure facts :-(
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
It's always size used as the reason that the brothers would be competitive.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
I don't know why Philosopher can't seem to get over the fact that sports and exercise science has evolved over the last 40 years... :vd:
Of course athletes are bigger and better conditioned nowdays compared to guts several decades ago.
When judging these guys in a purely physical sense you can only do so relevant to their contemporeries.
Imagine a 70s george foreman's genetics and natural talent coupled with the training regimes and the nutrition and pharmacuticals available to the klitschkos? He'd massacre Wlad and likely vitali too...
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
I don't know why Philosopher can't seem to get over the fact that sports and exercise science has evolved over the last 40 years... :vd:
Of course athletes are bigger and better conditioned nowdays compared to guts several decades ago.
When judging these guys in a purely physical sense you can only do so relevant to their contemporeries.
Imagine a 70s george foreman's genetics and natural talent coupled with the training regimes and the nutrition and pharmacuticals available to the klitschkos? He'd massacre Wlad and likely vitali too...
And you're leaving out Healthcare which is also important for growing big and strong and healthy.
As for your other point "imagine"....well that's the deal isn't it you have to imagine something like that happening and if EVRYONE grew up to be a giant sure the Klitschko's wouldn't win much but given the division they have they'd be hard pressed to do any better than they are doing. They win, they don't lose rounds, and they win by stoppage.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Yeah, they fight who's out there... Can't fault them on that.
What I do fault is anybody who thinks the division today is better just because fighters are bigger.
Other sports and opportunities have sucked a lot of the talent away from modern heavyweight boxing, the 70s had more talent in my opinion... Talent doesn't evolve, physical knowledge and technology does and in my opinion if you applied it to 70s heavies then you'd have a division as physically fit as today, but vibrant with talent and hunger.
It's a shame for the klits, they'd get more creditfor being a nose a head of thr competition than they do for being a mile a head of it... Philosopher dumbing everything down to 'they're big' is a gross over simplication.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Yeah, they fight who's out there... Can't fault them on that.
What I do fault is anybody who thinks the division today is better just because fighters are bigger.
Other sports and opportunities have sucked a lot of the talent away from modern heavyweight boxing, the 70s had more talent in my opinion... Talent doesn't evolve, physical knowledge and technology does and in my opinion if you applied it to 70s heavies then you'd have a division as physically fit as today, but vibrant with talent and hunger.
It's a shame for the klits, they'd get more creditfor being a nose a head of thr competition than they do for being a mile a head of it... Philosopher dumbing everything down to 'they're big' is a gross over simplication.
Well what I have a problem with is no matter how good these guys are there seems to be a ceiling as to how great people can perceive them of being. Only Rocky Marciano retired the undefeated undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, only Joe Louis made 25 consecutive successful title defenses and even if the Klitschko's had done that they'd never be considered greater than those fighters. Even if Wlad had rivalries where he had to fight tooth and nail to win he wouldn't be considered as great as Ali. If Wlad talked trash and was very intimidating he'd never be considered as great as Tyson. I just don't agree with that, the guys are the best this era has to offer and they are as you said MILES ahead of their competition. They are great no doubt, but Wlad is still writing his legacy.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Yeah, they fight who's out there... Can't fault them on that.
What I do fault is anybody who thinks the division today is better just because fighters are bigger.
Other sports and opportunities have sucked a lot of the talent away from modern heavyweight boxing, the 70s had more talent in my opinion... Talent doesn't evolve, physical knowledge and technology does and in my opinion if you applied it to 70s heavies then you'd have a division as physically fit as today, but vibrant with talent and hunger.
It's a shame for the klits, they'd get more creditfor being a nose a head of thr competition than they do for being a mile a head of it... Philosopher dumbing everything down to 'they're big' is a gross over simplication.
Well what I have a problem with is no matter how good these guys are there seems to be a ceiling as to how great people can perceive them of being. Only Rocky Marciano retired the undefeated undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, only Joe Louis made 25 consecutive successful title defenses and even if the Klitschko's had done that they'd never be considered greater than those fighters. Even if Wlad had rivalries where he had to fight tooth and nail to win he wouldn't be considered as great as Ali. If Wlad talked trash and was very intimidating he'd never be considered as great as Tyson. I just don't agree with that, the guys are the best this era has to offer and they are as you said MILES ahead of their competition. They are great no doubt, but Wlad is still writing his legacy.
B/W-syndrome - everything in the past was better than today.... - like talking with ones grandparents: "when I was young the winter was a lot harder than today - and the summer was much more sunny than today" - gnæk gnæk gnæk gnæk :-D
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Yeah, they fight who's out there... Can't fault them on that.
What I do fault is anybody who thinks the division today is better just because fighters are bigger.
Other sports and opportunities have sucked a lot of the talent away from modern heavyweight boxing, the 70s had more talent in my opinion... Talent doesn't evolve, physical knowledge and technology does and in my opinion if you applied it to 70s heavies then you'd have a division as physically fit as today, but vibrant with talent and hunger.
It's a shame for the klits, they'd get more creditfor being a nose a head of thr competition than they do for being a mile a head of it... Philosopher dumbing everything down to 'they're big' is a gross over simplication.
Well what I have a problem with is no matter how good these guys are there seems to be a ceiling as to how great people can perceive them of being. Only Rocky Marciano retired the undefeated undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, only Joe Louis made 25 consecutive successful title defenses and even if the Klitschko's had done that they'd never be considered greater than those fighters.
Even if Wlad had rivalries where he had to fight tooth and nail to win he wouldn't be considered as great as Ali. If Wlad talked trash and was very intimidating he'd never be considered as great as Tyson. I just don't agree with that, the guys are the best this era has to offer and they are as you said MILES ahead of their competition. They are great no doubt, but Wlad is still writing his legacy.
That would've helped him more than you're assuming it would have.
A LOT more.
Re: Joe frazier (rip) would be the smallest opponent wlad....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Plys 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Yeah, they fight who's out there... Can't fault them on that.
What I do fault is anybody who thinks the division today is better just because fighters are bigger.
Other sports and opportunities have sucked a lot of the talent away from modern heavyweight boxing, the 70s had more talent in my opinion... Talent doesn't evolve, physical knowledge and technology does and in my opinion if you applied it to 70s heavies then you'd have a division as physically fit as today, but vibrant with talent and hunger.
It's a shame for the klits, they'd get more creditfor being a nose a head of thr competition than they do for being a mile a head of it... Philosopher dumbing everything down to 'they're big' is a gross over simplication.
Well what I have a problem with is no matter how good these guys are there seems to be a ceiling as to how great people can perceive them of being. Only Rocky Marciano retired the undefeated undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, only Joe Louis made 25 consecutive successful title defenses and even if the Klitschko's had done that they'd never be considered greater than those fighters. Even if Wlad had rivalries where he had to fight tooth and nail to win he wouldn't be considered as great as Ali. If Wlad talked trash and was very intimidating he'd never be considered as great as Tyson. I just don't agree with that, the guys are the best this era has to offer and they are as you said MILES ahead of their competition. They are great no doubt, but Wlad is still writing his legacy.
B/W-syndrome - everything in the past was better than today.... - like talking with ones grandparents: "when I was young the winter was a lot harder than today - and the summer was much more sunny than today" - gnæk gnæk gnæk gnæk :-D
They don't call it the Golden era of the division for nothing. I think younger generations do the exact opposite when it comes to fighters of eras gone by. They gravitate to what they know and live, its completely natural. Regarding the heavyweight division in a Foreman, Frazier, Ali etc etc era though, thank God they-we recognize the quality and competitiveness of that time and not just blow it off as some blurry photos and dusty fossils when compared to todays guys, well, most do not. It was just deeper and far more fan friendly.
