Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
erics44
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
the magarito loaded gloves thing cropped up again in a thread recently and it got me thinking
for the record i dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about the gloves and the severity of it and all that, although i know its probably inevitable
but do you think Hollyfield would be as hated a Margo clearly is by the general fan if he had been in the same situation as margo was with the gloves? and do you think the general assumption would be that hollyfield knew what was happening and that that wasnt the first time he had done it
the poll is only a yes/no answer
yes - Hollyfield would be as hated as Margo is and he would have known about the plaster and he would have done it in previous fights
No - Hollyfield would not be hated as much as Margo and he might not have known about the plaster and he may not have done it in previous fights
If Holyfield screwed with his gloves and was caught, he would have faced the exact same ridicule as Margarito and Resto and ftr that infraction is both colour blind and nationality blind. Its like predetermining ones own crucifixion.
@
Beanflicker has a point though because specific steroids amount to the same thing at least philosophically. Suppose for the sake of argument that Mancini tested positive after the Kim fight?
He may very well have been charged with criminal negligence causing death or reckless endangerment causing death.
Still, there is something about the gloves which separates it from just about any other infraction and it fundamentally has everything to do with pugilism itself and not a law written outside of it.
Having said that it disturbs me today on the amount of glove shaving that is allowed in certain regions. There are times when you cant even see the glove decal. It probably had something to do with that young Mexicans death a couple of weeks back.
Glove infractions stand out because its something that ought to be easily controlled. "Juice" cannot be controlled as designer drugs are being cooked up on a daily basis and lots of them undetectable and especially with advertised testing and scheduled blood letting.
a flawed opinion to suggest that this makes it different than peds
you take steroids you punch harder
and to say loaded gloves are worse than peds is one massively sweeping statement
its like saying all gingers pull lots of birds, i know some of us do, but its a lot to do with personality as well as looks, and personality varies so much
There are two trains of thought. It comes down to a question of control. We can assume I suppose that all fighters or at least a majority are all using peds. That changes the dynamic just as the fundamental purpose of the sport does in relationship to gloves. Nobody period should be able to get away with junk gloves in this day and age. It can be and should be witnessed by all from the wrap to the fit and to the ring. The same can not be said about ped use. It could very well be an even playing field in that regard.
well if your opinion is that peds are acceptable because it is the norm then any kind of glove loading, even the least amount, is worse than any kind of peds using, even the most severe
there for, if that were your opinion, then yes in 100% of cases loaded gloves are worse than peds
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
erics44
there are so many factors involved in making a statement like youre last sentence it just cant be a valid opinion
unless you know all of the facts about peds and the advantages it gives you, the type and volumes of peds that we are talking about, and the way in which they are used - and you also know the severity of the loaded gloves and the volume of use then you just couldnt jump to a conclusion like that
What do you mean, it can't be a valid opinion?
I never made any claims as to which one is more dangerous, ect. But in my mind, there is a clear distinction between taking an illegal substance to improve how your body functions and bringing a weapon into the ring with you. If people want to disagree, that's fine. They are both forms of cheating and both are absolutely unforgivable, but I view loaded gloves in a worse light. If you don't, fair enough.
Re: The emotion of the fan
On a side note, I'm willing to bet I know more about PEDs (types, effects, usage, history, ect) than PROBABLY anybody here.
There are a few guys here who seem to know what they're talking about, but most people here sound ignorant whenever PEDs are brought up.
Re: The emotion of the fan
If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.
You know that is a good point. I for one am interested in someone contradicting this statement with facts or something of substance.
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
It's not about replicating an impact. And it's not just steroids. That's why people use the term PEDs. It's proven that secondary impacts after you are concussed are worse than the initial concussion. So one guy could have a loaded glove and blast a guy out early and another guy could be on EPO and not blast a guy out but use this extra stamina to hit a guy 50 more times than he could have with his natural stamina. Each shot being extra risk. There are 10 thousand variables and that's why I make no distinction between one form of cheating and another. It's all dangerous because the sport starts out dangerous adding unnatural danger on top is scummy. Only dirtbags do it. If they're all cheating then they're all dirtbags.
That's a valid point and I'm not saying you're wrong at all. Both are cheating, both are reprehensible, both should stain any athlete caught. Both undoubtedly allow you to do more damage to your opponent.
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.
It's not about replicating an impact. And it's not just steroids. That's why people use the term PEDs. It's proven that secondary impacts after you are concussed are worse than the initial concussion. So one guy could have a loaded glove and blast a guy out early and another guy could be on EPO and not blast a guy out but use this extra stamina to hit a guy 50 more times than he could have with his natural stamina. Each shot being extra risk. There are 10 thousand variables and that's why I make no distinction between one form of cheating and another. It's all dangerous because the sport starts out dangerous adding unnatural danger on top is scummy. Only dirtbags do it. If they're all cheating then they're all dirtbags.
I agree that all cheaters in this type of sport should be looked down at. We can treat all cheaters the same but all cheating is not on the same level. I'm sure we all can agree that getting twice by the same kind of punch is worse than getting hit once. And chances are you're not getting hit once and that's the end of the fight. More than likely a lot of damage is brought on and then the ending punch or punches come. But even so there is no study involving comparing someone getting hit once by a weaponized punch as opposed to getting hit twice by regular punches. People can and have died after one bare knuckle shot. The amount of impact is very important because one shot can be worse than two. You can't compare one of the same punch to two of the same punch if were comparing PEDs to loaded gloves. Those are two very different punches. Lets say a Malignaggi punch has half the impact of a Tyson punch. Then in this case 2 punches would be very much less harmful than 1.
Re: The emotion of the fan
The problem with PEDs though is that the use is rampant and guys simply aren't getting caught. People are generally naive (how many times have I head "I don't think X is on steroids, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy") and go into denial.
But if you want to discredit everyone who has used PEDs to succeed, fair enough, but you're going to be discrediting a lot of people.
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
If anyone here thinks that a steroid exists that can replicate the impact of having a loaded glove, you don't know steroids and you should cease talking about this subject.
mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves
completely irrelevant
and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
erics44
mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves
completely irrelevant
and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)
Weak troll job... :rolleyes:
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
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Originally Posted by
erics44
mate steroids don't replicate loaded gloves
completely irrelevant
and from your replies I would say you knowing more about roids than anyone on here isn't true :)
Weak troll job... :rolleyes:
awe common man, don't revert to calling me a troll
ill get the insults out of the way for you now
"how old are you"
"you don't know anything about boxing"
in discussions about sport there are opinions and facts, the difference is very clear, in another thread @ross said its a fact that fury has progressed more than chisora but really that isn't a fact its an opinion, and im just saying that so we have a clear distinction between the two
I now have 2 facts for you and one opinion related to this topic
Fact 1
Its is possible that taking peds can give a boxer a clearer advantage and make him more dangerous to his opponent than a boxer with loaded gloves
Fact 2
It is possible that when taking peds that Roy Jones, Mosley or Holyfield got a bigger advantage and were more dangerous to their opponents than Margarito would have been with his loaded gloves if he hadn't have been caught against Mosley
Opinion
On at least 1 occasion Roy Jones, Mosely and/or Holyfield got a bigger advantage and were more dangerous to their opponents than Margarito would have been with his loaded gloves if he hadn't have been caught against Mosley
Re: The emotion of the fan
LMAO.
Maybe you should look up what a "fact" actually is. A fact is an undeniable truth, not a "it's possible".
Dummy. You're out of your league.
Re: The emotion of the fan
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Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
LMAO.
Maybe you should look up what a "fact" actually is. A fact is an undeniable truth, not a "it's possible".
Dummy. You're out of your league.
it is a fact that it is possible , sounds pretty reasonable to me
i'm a troll and a dummy in consecutive posts, sounds a bit like you've lost your cool and you have no come back :)
Re: The emotion of the fan
Eric let me say this Holyfeild has never failed a drug test and had a 26 year career. I think it safe is safe to say if he was using yet never got caught most top athletes are using peds. So i believe Margarito getting caught for gloves was also on peds so he pretty much a double cheat which is pretty bad dude.
