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Who did Joe Frazier avoid? What big punchers?
You are really talking rubbish.
The ma was undisputed champion and had one of the longest reigns. Do not disrespect the great heavyweight champion and then praise bums of this year.
Otherwise I will get angry. :)
with all due consideration, this is about as bad as Paxtom's constant Ali-bashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
I respect Joe Frazier, the BOXER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I do not respect Joe Frazier, the mythology!
In terms of ATGness, Frazier > Leapai (obviously)
In terms of H2H Leapai > Frazier (also obviously)
what?
Joe Frazier was champion and olympic gold medalist and Leapai is not. How dare you equate the 2 together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI respect Joe Frazier, the BOXER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I do not respect Joe Frazier, the mythology!
In terms of ATGness, Frazier > Leapai (obviously)
In terms of H2H Leapai > Frazier (also obviously)
I didn't equate the 2 together at all, I clearly separated them totally.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterJoe Frazier was champion and olympic gold medalist and Leapai is not. How dare you equate the 2 together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI respect Joe Frazier, the BOXER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I do not respect Joe Frazier, the mythology!
In terms of ATGness, Frazier > Leapai (obviously)
In terms of H2H Leapai > Frazier (also obviously)
In Frazier's era, he won a gold medal and the HW championship. Against the criteria of his day, he achieved greatness that Alex Leapai does not even deserve a sniff at by the criteria of HIS era.
Agaisnt the criteria of Leapai's era though, Joe Frazier would never make it to the national or maybe even state side at Amateurm let alone the Olympics. He would never develop any aspirations to become a pro boxer at all because he wouldn't be good enough and were he to try he would never pass the medical test to be registered because he was half-blind (assuming that incident still occurred).
And were the Joe Frazier that WAS ever to have met the Leapai that IS in the same ring under some circumstance, Leapai would knock Frazier out in the first round under pretty much ANY circumstances! That is a fact!
And it takes nothing away from Frazier's greatness to say that! Frazier is STILL great! What he did in 1971 is still there. It will ALWAYS be there. It cannot NOT be there.
But that WAS 1971. And it is now nearly 2015!
Do not call Joe blind, bum or avoiding punchers then.
What a load of rubbish you and Bill Paxo, must do lunch together you like Bill must have had to manyQuote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI didn't equate the 2 together at all, I clearly separated them totally.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterJoe Frazier was champion and olympic gold medalist and Leapai is not. How dare you equate the 2 together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI respect Joe Frazier, the BOXER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I do not respect Joe Frazier, the mythology!
In terms of ATGness, Frazier > Leapai (obviously)
In terms of H2H Leapai > Frazier (also obviously)
In Frazier's era, he won a gold medal and the HW championship. Against the criteria of his day, he achieved greatness that Alex Leapai does not even deserve a sniff at by the criteria of HIS era.
Agaisnt the criteria of Leapai's era though, Joe Frazier would never make it to the national or maybe even state side at Amateurm let alone the Olympics. He would never develop any aspirations to become a pro boxer at all because he wouldn't be good enough and were he to try he would never pass the medical test to be registered because he was half-blind (assuming that incident still occurred).
And were the Joe Frazier that WAS ever to have met the Leapai that IS in the same ring under some circumstance, Leapai would knock Frazier out in the first round under pretty much ANY circumstances! That is a fact!
And it takes nothing away from Frazier's greatness to say that! Frazier is STILL great! What he did in 1971 is still there. It will ALWAYS be there. It cannot NOT be there.
But that WAS 1971. And it is now nearly 2015!
stupid tablets.:vd:
I HAVE called Joe a bum previously so you have got me there, but I refrained myself this time by omitting that single derogatory comment out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
By my OWN little rating system, Frazier only lost 4 fights, hence, is not a bum.
But whether he ducked them or happenstance was the case, he did not fight the bigger punchers of his era like Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle etc.
And that Frazier was blind on 1 eye is simply a fact. It is what it is.
You can pump up Frazier's heart and talent for achieving what he did DESPITE being blind on 1 eye.
But you can also look at it that to be able to become HW champ seeing with only 1 eye as some kind of evidence of a weak era.
You could say the same thing about Wlad being unbeaten for 10 years and having 17 defences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI HAVE called Joe a bum previously so you have got me there, but I refrained myself this time by omitting that single derogatory comment out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
By my OWN little rating system, Frazier only lost 4 fights, hence, is not a bum.
But whether he ducked them or happenstance was the case, he did not fight the bigger punchers of his era like Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle etc.
And that Frazier was blind on 1 eye is simply a fact. It is what it is.
You can pump up Frazier's heart and talent for achieving what he did DESPITE being blind on 1 eye.
But you can also look at it that to be able to become HW champ seeing with only 1 eye as some kind of evidence of a weak era.
Joe was already shot--I say Joe was shot about 60% after the brutal beating Ali laid on him on March 8, 1971, and Big George Foreaman took the other 40% out of him in January 1973 in Kingston, Jamaica. Frazier had nothign left after that. Cleveland wms? He was done by the time Joe won the Gold and was any kind of contender. Why would Joe fight HIM? Liston was already done in '65. Why woud Joe fight HIM? Lyle and Shavers peaked way after Joe was already shot. And Norton wasnt a big puncher AT ALL>Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerI HAVE called Joe a bum previously so you have got me there, but I refrained myself this time by omitting that single derogatory comment out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
By my OWN little rating system, Frazier only lost 4 fights, hence, is not a bum.
But whether he ducked them or happenstance was the case, he did not fight the bigger punchers of his era like Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle etc.
And that Frazier was blind on 1 eye is simply a fact. It is what it is.
You can pump up Frazier's heart and talent for achieving what he did DESPITE being blind on 1 eye.
But you can also look at it that to be able to become HW champ seeing with only 1 eye as some kind of evidence of a weak era.
Give Joe some credit for taking a 2nd fight with Goerge Foreman in 1975. How's that 2nd fight "avoiding the big punchers"?
Alright so happenstance has it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
As a matter of fact I don't think ANY of those guys are REALLY hard punchers compared with now times but they were considered so in those days.
Yes, fair enough, I'll concede to you Joe had heart to face Foreman again, I'll never claim he ducked hard punchers again.
Fact is there simply weren't any around really except Foreman.
"Mahammad Ali- brutal beating left him 60% shot"? What, in FOTC?
Come on though, Frazier goes 15 rounds without a KO with one of the most featherfisted boxers of all time and he is shot? You already had me with the rest of your statement, I wouldn't have mentioned that!
Frazier pasted Ali in 71. He would have scored the KO had he had a hard punch himself!
Anyway I fail to see how any of this makes a case for Joe to have a competitive fight with Holyfield.
Holyfield hit far harder than Joe, was faster, longer, stronger, iron chinned and elite skilled by comparison.
Take reflexless powder puff Ali out of FOTC and insert Evander of ANY time and Joe ain't going 15, 12, or even 6 I don't reckon.
I don't want to put up pics or vids again but if you seen Frazier up against Holyfield a small child could see immediately there's no contest.
Why disrespect Ali you Muppet?
Ali had one of the best chins in history.
No one says Ali was a knockout artist either.
You make concessions and then insult the fighters further.
On what grounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Being knocked by 185lb Cooper who had a bummy record?
Atleast when Wladimir got knocked down by a bum it was by a man mountain puncher and through exhaustion.
Muhammad Ali grew a lot stronger in his second career (his REAL prime) and DID have an iron chin in relation to his era.
But then again, the time he met a really hard puncher Foreman, he didn't really take any head shots because he was tortoise shelled on the ropes. Good on him for that, whatever works, he got the win.
But I don't think you can make a case for one of the hardest chins in "history" by taking shots from Frazier!
Imagine if we replaced Frazier's hooks with say, Tommy Morrison's?
Faster, sharper and about 3x harder? Really think his "chin" would have saved him then?
Chin is relative to the era, obviously. Claiming best in "history" can only include boxers up to that point in time. As it goes on there will be more and more boxers that both hit harder and take punches.