Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
You do know that authoritarian politicians can be either left or right?
Do I need to give a list of authoritarian lefties?
All politicians want to be authoritarian, it is what they signed up for. It is that Obama leads an executive that executes its authority using a Constitution written over two hundred year ago, and that has had what a mere seventeen amendments added?! That makes his job seemingly that bit more authoritarian...
:rolleyes: #1 Not exactly who I had in mind #2 The Constitution declares what the government CANNOT do and to that point grey is correct, if the Constitution was actually followed there would be far less authoritarianism in the Legislative and Executive branches of government.
And there are 27 Amendments to the Constitution, 26 really seeing how the 21st undoes the 18th.....if you're going to take digs at the Constitution at least take a fucking second to understand it or study it....who knows, maybe you'll find it interesting instead of just taking it for granted and assuming a lot of bullshit about it.
It is over 200 years old and yet including the original ten there have been only 27 amendments...
That truly is ridiculous, Constitutions need to change with the times, or else you are stuck with an ancient Conservative system. The US once claimed leadership of the 'free' world, but as the world has opened up, its Constitution has eroded its influence, and has now in some measures been overtaken by China in both economic size and hegemony, and in due course India will overtake the US too.
It is exactly the same arrogance that cost my Country hegemony; the refusal to change with the times, to use powers other than military to get the job done, it is so disappointing and frustrating, as the US was supposed to be different...
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
You do know that authoritarian politicians can be either left or right?
Do I need to give a list of authoritarian lefties?
All politicians want to be authoritarian, it is what they signed up for. It is that Obama leads an executive that executes its authority using a Constitution written over two hundred year ago, and that has had what a mere seventeen amendments added?! That makes his job seemingly that bit more authoritarian...
:rolleyes: #1 Not exactly who I had in mind #2 The Constitution declares what the government CANNOT do and to that point grey is correct, if the Constitution was actually followed there would be far less authoritarianism in the Legislative and Executive branches of government.
And there are 27 Amendments to the Constitution, 26 really seeing how the 21st undoes the 18th.....if you're going to take digs at the Constitution at least take a fucking second to understand it or study it....who knows, maybe you'll find it interesting instead of just taking it for granted and assuming a lot of bullshit about it.
It is over 200 years old and yet including the original ten there have been only 27 amendments...
That truly is ridiculous, Constitutions need to change with the times, or else you are stuck with an ancient Conservative system. The US once claimed leadership of the 'free' world, but as the world has opened up, its Constitution has eroded its influence, and has now in some measures been overtaken by China in both economic size and hegemony, and in due course India will overtake the US too.
It is exactly the same arrogance that cost my Country hegemony; the refusal to change with the times, to use powers other than military to get the job done, it is so disappointing and frustrating, as the US was supposed to be different...
The idea of the constitution is to limit the power of government. They found ways around that but fortunately they can't get around the amendment process. Do you think more amendments would make things better? The less it is screwed with the better. India and China will continue to grow in influence but you will see a drastically different approach which will make the US look like a brilliant place.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
The idea of the constitution is to limit the power of government. They found ways around that but fortunately they can't get around the amendment process. Do you think more amendments would make things better? The less it is screwed with the better. India and China will continue to grow in influence but you will see a drastically different approach which will make the US look like a brilliant place.
That is where the US has got it wrong. As Marx showed Capitalism needs to be controlled by the State. That the US executive cannot do this unlike say China, is a big disadvantage. The US has in recent years been a one trick pony, granted the trick is awesome (its military force), but still it has lost more and more kudos and the Government with its hands tied by that Constitution can do little about it.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
The idea of the constitution is to limit the power of government. They found ways around that but fortunately they can't get around the amendment process. Do you think more amendments would make things better? The less it is screwed with the better. India and China will continue to grow in influence but you will see a drastically different approach which will make the US look like a brilliant place.
That is where the US has got it wrong. As Marx showed Capitalism needs to be controlled by the State. That the US executive cannot do this unlike say China, is a big disadvantage. The US has in recent years been a one trick pony, granted the trick is awesome (its military force), but still it has lost more and more kudos and the Government with its hands tied by that Constitution can do little about it.
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Hence my point that the US are making the same mistakes of past...
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Hence my point that the US are making the same mistakes of past...
Yes, and China is what, seven years away from out doing the ussr in length of communist rule, but how much communism is in China. Where are the workers rights, are stocks and property being flipped, are there great divides in social classes. Is England charging money to visit Marx grave. Where is communism. Why did Marx buy a private grave in England instead of having the party provide one. What happened to the great Marx. It seems he has become a capitalist in death. Have you paid the pounds to visit his grave. How much communism is left in China, and if it didn't move away from communism in its financial sector, it probably already would have imploded. You pine about Spain, exactly how long did the commies prevail there.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
That is where the US has got it wrong. As Marx showed Capitalism needs to be controlled by the State.
Did he? And who did he show that to?
Where is Marx's perfect Communist/Socialist utopia? Is it Cuba? Is it North Korea? Is it China? Was it the USSR? Was it Nazi Germany? Was it East Germany? Was it one of the Soviet satellite states like Romania or Bulgaria or Czechoslovakia? Is it Vietnam? Cambodia?
I hear tell of how brilliant Marx was and how he revolutionized politics and economics and how people have tried to implement his ideas but they just go astray for one reason or another...maybe it's from Capitalist meddling, but you guys never seem to have the perfect formula. And to that end, if Communism and Socialism are such fragile little things as compared to Capitalism which can withstand the centuries and see it's poor even have access to luxuries the average commie couldn't afford....why is it seen as "more fair" or "more just" or "more perfect"? Because from where I sit....Marx's work looks like the fevered dream of an ideologue, nothing more.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Hence my point that the US are making the same mistakes of past...
Yes, and China is what, seven years away from out doing the ussr in length of communist rule, but how much communism is in China. Where are the workers rights, are stocks and property being flipped, are there great divides in social classes. Is England charging money to visit Marx grave. Where is communism. Why did Marx buy a private grave in England instead of having the party provide one. What happened to the great Marx. It seems he has become a capitalist in death. Have you paid the pounds to visit his grave. How much communism is left in China, and if it didn't move away from communism in its financial sector, it probably already would have imploded. You pine about Spain, exactly how long did the commies prevail there.
To me Communism is dead, the Communist Manifesto is a flawed document, Marx's strength is as a critique of Capitalism, not his (and Engels) solution. As you alluded to, what is happening in China is a further development in Communism, an interesting social experiment, that seems thus far to be working, at least economically.
As for Spain, although not winning the popular vote in the Republican sector to at first a coalition of the left (which they were involved in) and then finally the Anarchists, the money the Soviet Union was pumping in meant the Communists were the de-facto power for almost all of the nearly three years of the Civil War.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
That is where the US has got it wrong. As Marx showed Capitalism needs to be controlled by the State.
Did he? And who did he show that to?
Where is Marx's perfect Communist/Socialist utopia? Is it Cuba? Is it North Korea? Is it China? Was it the USSR? Was it Nazi Germany? Was it East Germany? Was it one of the Soviet satellite states like Romania or Bulgaria or Czechoslovakia? Is it Vietnam? Cambodia?
I hear tell of how brilliant Marx was and how he revolutionized politics and economics and how people have tried to implement his ideas but they just go astray for one reason or another...maybe it's from Capitalist meddling, but you guys never seem to have the perfect formula. And to that end, if Communism and Socialism are such fragile little things as compared to Capitalism which can withstand the centuries and see it's poor even have access to luxuries the average commie couldn't afford....why is it seen as "more fair" or "more just" or "more perfect"? Because from where I sit....Marx's work looks like the fevered dream of an ideologue, nothing more.
Marx's strength is as a critique of Capitalism, I am with you over the Communist Manifesto, I do not agree with it as a whole.
As stated in the past, I think the answer is Anarcho Syndicalism for the Developed Capitalist powers. To get to that position I believe initially Socialism would be a good starting point.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Hence my point that the US are making the same mistakes of past...
Yes, and China is what, seven years away from out doing the ussr in length of communist rule, but how much communism is in China. Where are the workers rights, are stocks and property being flipped, are there great divides in social classes. Is England charging money to visit Marx grave. Where is communism. Why did Marx buy a private grave in England instead of having the party provide one. What happened to the great Marx. It seems he has become a capitalist in death. Have you paid the pounds to visit his grave. How much communism is left in China, and if it didn't move away from communism in its financial sector, it probably already would have imploded. You pine about Spain, exactly how long did the commies prevail there.
To me Communism is dead, the Communist Manifesto is a flawed document, Marx's strength is as a critique of Capitalism, not his (and Engels) solution. As you alluded to, what is happening in China is a further development in Communism, an interesting social experiment, that seems thus far to be working, at least economically.
As for Spain, although not winning the popular vote in the Republican sector to at first a coalition of the left (which they were involved in) and then finally the Anarchists, the money the Soviet Union was pumping in meant the Communists were the de-facto power for almost all of the nearly three years of the Civil War.
But a mere critique is not what he meant. Mao chastised Kruschev for dismissing Stalin saying the only way to get back to where things should be is further study of Marx and Lenin. Mao believed he had the perfect communist utopia, how many did he kill, estimates range from 40 to 70 million, of his own people of course. So Mao thought Stalin was a good communist. China is not a good example of a communist country making change, it was corrupt and torturous from the beginning and remains that way today. If you think Marx intent was to merely critique capitalism, you are missing his point. One can critique capitalism saying the well being of man is in none of its economic indicators but when you search countries around the world to see where proper food and water is available 8 out of ten are in capitalist countries. Economist point to the Chinese economy as being a paper tiger ( Mao called the US military a paper tiger) some economists predict the wheels will fall off. I don't know enough about the intricacies of the Chinese economy to say one way or another. I've been to China numerous times and found the people to be wonderful. They complain about their government much as we do here. I wouldn't say all aspects of socialism are bad, I think too much government can be a bad thing, which is what the constitution is supposed to do, limit the powers of government to allow freedom to the republic. I'm sure communism has some noble ideas but the only thing that can be proven is that it has failed. There is socialism in communism just as there is socialism in democracy. Norway models itself as a socialist state where the government controls much of industry, or at least oil industry and gives money from that industry to the people. However, cracks are beginning to show in that system. If you want to use communism to critique capitalism, go right ahead, but let recent history show not just the critique, but reality.
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Britkid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walrus
Hold on let me think about that.........hmmmm.........na, I'm right.
Hence my point that the US are making the same mistakes of past...
Yes, and China is what, seven years away from out doing the ussr in length of communist rule, but how much communism is in China. Where are the workers rights, are stocks and property being flipped, are there great divides in social classes. Is England charging money to visit Marx grave. Where is communism. Why did Marx buy a private grave in England instead of having the party provide one. What happened to the great Marx. It seems he has become a capitalist in death. Have you paid the pounds to visit his grave. How much communism is left in China, and if it didn't move away from communism in its financial sector, it probably already would have imploded. You pine about Spain, exactly how long did the commies prevail there.
To me Communism is dead, the Communist Manifesto is a flawed document, Marx's strength is as a critique of Capitalism, not his (and Engels) solution. As you alluded to, what is happening in China is a further development in Communism, an interesting social experiment, that seems thus far to be working, at least economically.
As for Spain, although not winning the popular vote in the Republican sector to at first a coalition of the left (which they were involved in) and then finally the Anarchists, the money the Soviet Union was pumping in meant the Communists were the de-facto power for almost all of the nearly three years of the Civil War.
But a mere critique is not what he meant. Mao chastised Kruschev for dismissing Stalin saying the only way to get back to where things should be is further study of Marx and Lenin. Mao believed he had the perfect communist utopia, how many did he kill, estimates range from 40 to 70 million, of his own people of course. So Mao thought Stalin was a good communist. China is not a good example of a communist country making change, it was corrupt and torturous from the beginning and remains that way today. If you think Marx intent was to merely critique capitalism, you are missing his point. One can critique capitalism saying the well being of man is in none of its economic indicators but when you search countries around the world to see where proper food and water is available 8 out of ten are in capitalist countries. Economist point to the Chinese economy as being a paper tiger ( Mao called the US military a paper tiger) some economists predict the wheels will fall off. I don't know enough about the intricacies of the Chinese economy to say one way or another. I've been to China numerous times and found the people to be wonderful. They complain about their government much as we do here. I wouldn't say all aspects of socialism are bad, I think too much government can be a bad thing, which is what the constitution is supposed to do, limit the powers of government to allow freedom to the republic. I'm sure communism has some noble ideas but the only thing that can be proven is that it has failed. There is socialism in communism just as there is socialism in democracy. Norway models itself as a socialist state where the government controls much of industry, or at least oil industry and gives money from that industry to the people. However, cracks are beginning to show in that system. If you want to use communism to critique capitalism, go right ahead, but let recent history show not just the critique, but reality.
Again you are missing my point about Marx in this debate. The Communist Manifesto is not what I look at when I read Marx. (Das) [K]Capital is the main tool for the critique of Capitalism I am discussing here.
Capitalism in its initial stages has shown to have benefits in the development and structure of a state. And then when combined with Socialism as was the case even in the States to a point after WWII, can bring incredible benefits. But Capital is potentially infinite, so sooner or later will be corrupted. The Working class of the Developed World have not received a real terms pay increase with the exception of a brief period in the 90s, since the 70s. The time has come, Capital is corrupted, a huge warning sign of this occurred in 2007-09, we have had the benefits of Capitalism, there is a need for change, a need to develop further...
Re: Europe is too much of a soft touch
....I'll never ever understand why anyone would believe in socialism or communism...unless they had absolutely no skills at all or absolutely no motivation at all.
