Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
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Originally Posted by
mikeeod
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
mikeeod
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Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Not sure George beats Lennox or Riddick Bowe. Both guys were very big men who were faster and more mobile than a prime Foreman. George may have had the strength and power advantage over both, but they were much better boxers and had more options in the ring.
In my opinion, Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield beat any version of Foreman. Holmes, in my opinion, is a very underrated boxer whose jab, chin, stamina, and movement would've made him EXTREMELY difficult for Foreman (or any heavyweight, including Ali) to beat during his prime. Evander would just be a bad style match up, able to utilize his stamina, chin, and underrated defense to survive 6-7 brutal rounds before stopping an exhausted Foreman. You have to remember that a young Foreman was not clever at all, and knew nothing about pace.
Foreman had a good fight with Evander when Holy field was at his peak and George old. Prime George would have stopped Evander because Holyfield like to fight and that would have spelt trouble for him.
Where I see things different is that actually, Foreman was better suited to fight Evander when he was older, smarter, and knew about the importance of pacing himself. The young Foreman would have gone all out and tried for the knockout, exhausting himself in the process. Evander has a world class chin, heart, and stamina. He had very underrated boxing skills, and his defense was on point when he needed it to be. It would have been brutal for Evander for the first 6 or 7 rounds, but Evander was difficult to stop during his prime (almost impossible), and George struggled with guys who could last the distance (Ali/Young). Evander would last the distance.
Foreman was never stopped by anyone other than Ali and Evander would not be able to do that. Foreman would pace himself better and I could not see Evander stand up to Foreman's blows. Taking Bowes is one thing but Big George is a different thing.
Wasn't just Bowe's punches Evander took. He took Tyson's, Lewis's, Foreman's, Moorer's, Mercer's, Cooper's, and Rahman's best punches, and those guys had legitimate one punch power. You are correct that only Ali stopped George, but Jimmy Young came very close as well, late in their fight. I feel that Evander could punch harder than either of those guys, not that it would matter much. George was stopped due to exhaustion, which would also be a factor in his fight vs. Evander. Foreman was a beast in his prime, and EXTREMELY strong. Evander was no slouch in the strength department, however, and would likely be "up" for a fight against a prime Foreman. I can definitely see your argument/POV, and think you make valid points, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Not to labour the point and you know your boxing but Holyfield was very inconsistent and it was probably due to injury and taking fighters for granted but he was knocked down by right hand from Cooper (not his big left hook), wobbled by uppercut from Bowe and knocked out by right hand by Bowe not even mentioning body shots by Toney.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Not sure George beats Lennox or Riddick Bowe. Both guys were very big men who were faster and more mobile than a prime Foreman. George may have had the strength and power advantage over both, but they were much better boxers and had more options in the ring.
In my opinion, Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield beat any version of Foreman. Holmes, in my opinion, is a very underrated boxer whose jab, chin, stamina, and movement would've made him EXTREMELY difficult for Foreman (or any heavyweight, including Ali) to beat during his prime. Evander would just be a bad style match up, able to utilize his stamina, chin, and underrated defense to survive 6-7 brutal rounds before stopping an exhausted Foreman. You have to remember that a young Foreman was not clever at all, and knew nothing about pace.
Foreman had a good fight with Evander when Holy field was at his peak and George old. Prime George would have stopped Evander because Holyfield like to fight and that would have spelt trouble for him.
Where I see things different is that actually, Foreman was better suited to fight Evander when he was older, smarter, and knew about the importance of pacing himself. The young Foreman would have gone all out and tried for the knockout, exhausting himself in the process. Evander has a world class chin, heart, and stamina. He had very underrated boxing skills, and his defense was on point when he needed it to be. It would have been brutal for Evander for the first 6 or 7 rounds, but Evander was difficult to stop during his prime (almost impossible), and George struggled with guys who could last the distance (Ali/Young). Evander would last the distance.
Foreman was never stopped by anyone other than Ali and Evander would not be able to do that. Foreman would pace himself better and I could not see Evander stand up to Foreman's blows. Taking Bowes is one thing but Big George is a different thing.
Wasn't just Bowe's punches Evander took. He took Tyson's, Lewis's, Foreman's, Moorer's, Mercer's, Cooper's, and Rahman's best punches, and those guys had legitimate one punch power. You are correct that only Ali stopped George, but Jimmy Young came very close as well, late in their fight. I feel that Evander could punch harder than either of those guys, not that it would matter much. George was stopped due to exhaustion, which would also be a factor in his fight vs. Evander. Foreman was a beast in his prime, and EXTREMELY strong. Evander was no slouch in the strength department, however, and would likely be "up" for a fight against a prime Foreman. I can definitely see your argument/POV, and think you make valid points, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Not to labour the point and you know your boxing but Holyfield was very inconsistent and it was probably due to injury and taking fighters for granted but he was knocked down by right hand from Cooper (not his big left hook), wobbled by uppercut from Bowe and knocked out by right hand by Bowe not even mentioning body shots by Toney.
Appreciate the compliment (not sure I agree that I know boxing though because as Brockton pointed out, I've only been on THIS site since 2011 and only posted 943 times), and I actually agree with your point on why Evander lost some of his fights. He took Bowe lightly the first time, Lennox lightly the first time, fought Moorer and Bowe (third time) with injuries/illness, and thought Toney would be a walk in the park. Evander had problems with slick guys (Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, James Toney, Fres Oquendo...etc.), and big men who could box and control distance/fight tall (Bowe and Lewis). When Evander came to the fight motivated, however, he was a different animal (think Bowe, Moorer, and even the Lewis rematches, along with the Douglas and Tyson fights). I can't see any scenario where Evander UNDERESTIMATES George Foreman, and actually feel that he would view George as a bully (like he did Tyson), and actually come in more focused than usual. I like George and think he was a great champ and unfortunate to come along when the greatest heavyweight ever was around, but stylistically I don't see him doing well vs. Bowe, Lewis, Holmes, or Holyfield. Good discussion and great debate though.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
mikeeod
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Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Not sure George beats Lennox or Riddick Bowe. Both guys were very big men who were faster and more mobile than a prime Foreman. George may have had the strength and power advantage over both, but they were much better boxers and had more options in the ring.
In my opinion, Larry Holmes and Evander Holyfield beat any version of Foreman. Holmes, in my opinion, is a very underrated boxer whose jab, chin, stamina, and movement would've made him EXTREMELY difficult for Foreman (or any heavyweight, including Ali) to beat during his prime. Evander would just be a bad style match up, able to utilize his stamina, chin, and underrated defense to survive 6-7 brutal rounds before stopping an exhausted Foreman. You have to remember that a young Foreman was not clever at all, and knew nothing about pace.
Foreman had a good fight with Evander when Holy field was at his peak and George old. Prime George would have stopped Evander because Holyfield like to fight and that would have spelt trouble for him.
Where I see things different is that actually, Foreman was better suited to fight Evander when he was older, smarter, and knew about the importance of pacing himself. The young Foreman would have gone all out and tried for the knockout, exhausting himself in the process. Evander has a world class chin, heart, and stamina. He had very underrated boxing skills, and his defense was on point when he needed it to be. It would have been brutal for Evander for the first 6 or 7 rounds, but Evander was difficult to stop during his prime (almost impossible), and George struggled with guys who could last the distance (Ali/Young). Evander would last the distance.
Foreman was never stopped by anyone other than Ali and Evander would not be able to do that. Foreman would pace himself better and I could not see Evander stand up to Foreman's blows. Taking Bowes is one thing but Big George is a different thing.
Wasn't just Bowe's punches Evander took. He took Tyson's, Lewis's, Foreman's, Moorer's, Mercer's, Cooper's, and Rahman's best punches, and those guys had legitimate one punch power. You are correct that only Ali stopped George, but Jimmy Young came very close as well, late in their fight. I feel that Evander could punch harder than either of those guys, not that it would matter much. George was stopped due to exhaustion, which would also be a factor in his fight vs. Evander. Foreman was a beast in his prime, and EXTREMELY strong. Evander was no slouch in the strength department, however, and would likely be "up" for a fight against a prime Foreman. I can definitely see your argument/POV, and think you make valid points, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Not to labour the point and you know your boxing but Holyfield was very inconsistent and it was probably due to injury and taking fighters for granted but he was knocked down by right hand from Cooper (not his big left hook), wobbled by uppercut from Bowe and knocked out by right hand by Bowe not even mentioning body shots by Toney.
Appreciate the compliment (not sure I agree that I know boxing though because as Brockton pointed out, I've only been on THIS site since 2011 and only posted 943 times), and I actually agree with your point on why Evander lost some of his fights. He took Bowe lightly the first time, Lennox lightly the first time, fought Moorer and Bowe (third time) with injuries/illness, and thought Toney would be a walk in the park. Evander had problems with slick guys (Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, James Toney, Fres Oquendo...etc.), and big men who could box and control distance/fight tall (Bowe and Lewis). When Evander came to the fight motivated, however, he was a different animal (think Bowe, Moorer, and even the Lewis rematches, along with the Douglas and Tyson fights). I can't see any scenario where Evander UNDERESTIMATES George Foreman, and actually feel that he would view George as a bully (like he did Tyson), and actually come in more focused than usual. I like George and think he was a great champ and unfortunate to come along when the greatest heavyweight ever was around, but stylistically I don't see him doing well vs. Bowe, Lewis, Holmes, or Holyfield. Good discussion and great debate though.
I agree with Lennox, Bowe and Holmes v Foreman but Holyfield was smaller but if anyone could take the blows from Foreman then Evander could and if he did then you are right big George would be in trouble.
PS Forget what Brock says.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
One of the most overrated heavyweights in the history of the sport. His legacy was captured after he retired for 8 years. In his prime he had the same resume as Wilder and when he beat Frazier he was somehow vaulted to some weird status. "Clubbed" is a perfect word to describe the guy
Its comically ironic that those who downplay Ali will then go on to bolster the likes of him and Larry Holmes.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
One of the most overrated heavyweights in the history of the sport. His legacy was captured after he retired for 8 years. In his prime he had the same resume as Wilder and when he beat Frazier he was somehow vaulted to some weird status. "Clubbed" is a perfect word to describe the guy
Its comically ironic that those who downplay Ali will then go on to bolster the likes of him and Larry Holmes.
I take it you weren't/aren't a fan of Larry's? Always interested in hearing other's perspectives on him. I personally rank him high, but can understand when his detractors don't. Definitely should've unified the titles and he was unfortunate to come along during a weak era of big men.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
One of the most overrated heavyweights in the history of the sport. His legacy was captured after he retired for 8 years. In his prime he had the same resume as Wilder and when he beat Frazier he was somehow vaulted to some weird status. "Clubbed" is a perfect word to describe the guy
Its comically ironic that those who downplay Ali will then go on to bolster the likes of him and Larry Holmes.
I take it you weren't/aren't a fan of Larry's? Always interested in hearing other's perspectives on him. I personally rank him high, but can understand when his detractors don't. Definitely should've unified the titles
and he was unfortunate to come along during a weak era of big men.
Or fortunate, depending on ones view. I kind of think he was somewhat an artificial construct of Don King. I certainly wont deny the mans skill. He had the best walk away jab I have ever seen and was a damn good pugilist but the timing of his rise was impeccable imo. King over played his hand though when he forced through the Ali fight.
And just to be clear, I think the division itself has been the weakest one consistently for 150 years and at times its the most difficult to discuss or rank because of that fact.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
[QUOTE=IamInuit;1367767]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
One of the most overrated heavyweights in the history of the sport. His legacy was captured after he retired for 8 years. In his prime he had the same resume as Wilder and when he beat Frazier he was somehow vaulted to some weird status. "Clubbed" is a perfect word to describe the guy
Its comically ironic that those who downplay Ali will then go on to bolster the likes of him and Larry Holmes.
I take it you weren't/aren't a fan of Larry's? Always interested in hearing other's perspectives on him. I personally rank him high, but can understand when his detractors don't. Definitely should've unified the titles
and he was unfortunate to come along during a weak era of big men.
Or fortunate, depending on ones view. I kind of think he was somewhat an artificial construct of Don King. I certainly wont deny the mans skill. He had the best walk away jab I have ever seen and was a damn good pugilist but the timing of his rise was impeccable imo. King over played his hand though when he forced through the Ali fight.
And just to be clear, I think the division itself has been the weakest one consistently for 150 years and at times its the most difficult to discuss or rank because of that fact.[/QUOTE]
Highlighted the bolded text because super middle, cruiserweight, and even light heavy have been abysmal at times when I think the heavies were stacked. The 90's was a VERY good era of heavyweights, in my opinion. Tons of great match ups with most coming to fruition. I used to complain about that group at the time but looking back, I was spoiled and needed a reality check. Anyways, appreciate the perspective and alternate POV, so thanks for elaborating. Larry did have a phenomenal jab...
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
I've been a member since 2002.
We know. :footinmouth: But that is a very old fashioned term for one.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
I've been a member since 2002.
We know. :footinmouth: But that is a very old fashioned term for one.
We actually DO know about the 2002 thing. Imagine a year earlier was the whole 9-11 thing, the world was changed after that.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
And just to be clear, I think the division itself has been the weakest one consistently for 150 years and at times its the most difficult to discuss or rank because of that fact.
Highlighted the bolded text because super middle, cruiserweight, and even light heavy have been abysmal at times when I think the heavies were stacked. The 90's was a VERY good era of heavyweights, in my opinion. Tons of great match ups with most coming to fruition. I used to complain about that group at the time but looking back, I was spoiled and needed a reality check. Anyways, appreciate the perspective and alternate POV, so thanks for elaborating. Larry did have a phenomenal jab...
;D You overlapped a couple of tags there.
For sure and fair enough but nowhere near the heavyweight division % wise. The super mids never even came around until the 80's really. Right about when Leonard fought Lalonde and had it invented lol. What a farce that was.
Anyway I digress, its always puzzled me as to why the heavyweight championship of the world was so coveted when overall its the weakest division in the sport as far as competition levels go. One can only conclude that its solely based weight and height and not boxing quality. Throw it the odd gem that comes along and dominates this mediocrity and the fallacy continues.
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
I've been a member since 2002.
We know. :footinmouth: But that is a very old fashioned term for one.
We actually DO know about the 2002 thing. Imagine a year earlier was the whole 9-11 thing, the world was changed after that.
Member variable
Limb (anatomy), an appendage of the human or animal body
A euphemism for "penis"
Re: Foreman clubs out EVERYONE but Ali
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ruthless rocco
I've been a member since 2002.
We know. :footinmouth: But that is a very old fashioned term for one.
We actually DO know about the 2002 thing. Imagine a year earlier was the whole 9-11 thing, the world was changed after that.
Member variable
Limb (anatomy), an appendage of the human or animal body
A euphemism for "penis"
Lol. I'm a tail end boomer and "member" "johnson" and "junk" were slang my generation learned from our older brothers and the school yard.
